View Full Version : Engine Question


case12
04/20/2005, 06:54 PM
I am not as good at engine work as I am at detail work on my GT/CS. So, I have a new engine problem to ask the group. My GT/CS (289) started running very rough - almost shaking the engine off the mounts, especially under acceleration. I checked around and found where the problems is, but not the problem itself - the number 1 cylinder appears to be the culprit. The odd thing is that when I take the plug wire OFF number 1, the engine runs smooth - when I put it on it runs rough. I have switched wires and plugs and get the same effect (the plug is a nice tan color). As soon as I put the wire to the plug the engine starts shaking. What may cause this? Valve settings (the valves are noisy)? Worn out cam? I have a mustang engine buddy coming over to help me out Sunday, and thought we could use a few ideas. I need to have her running good as show season is starting up here soon. Casey

Mustanglvr
04/20/2005, 08:02 PM
Maybe its the plug wire. It could be bad. Or, I know the wires are supposed to be on the plugs in a certain order, maybe that has something to do with it. I`m sure you`ve already checked all that. I`m just coming up with a few guesses for ya. :)Rhonda

case12
04/21/2005, 07:04 AM
Rhonda, thanks. We have replaced plug wires and checked the firing order. Maybe it is timing or valve settings? The shop messed with both of these last time I had it in. BTW, it has Rousch heads. (anyone have these on their C code?). Casey

coloradoHCS
04/21/2005, 08:27 AM
Case12, vibration at the engine could be a number of things both internal and external. Here are my thoughts:
1)Eliminate the plugs and wires. If the plug is tan it is a good indication that it is firing properly.

2.Timing chain and or valve timing could be the cause. Check to see that the valves are closing on the compression stroke. Pull the spark plug and plug the hole with your finger. Jog the starter and the compression should push your finger away at TDC of the compression stroke.

3)If timing is dead on and the pressure is not there during the compression stroke look for a flat cam or valve adjustment/failure. These may cause vibration.

4)Sometimes the rubber ring within the harmonic balancer will have spun. This will throw the balance of the engine out, especially at higher RPM. Visually inspect your balancer for cracking or separation. This is a common cause of high vibration in engines when all is correct internally.

5)Does your car have an auto or a manual tranny. If is is manual sometimes a bad flywheel can cause vibration. I think this possibility is remote but worth considering.

6)I can see no reason why the heads should be causing this problem. How long have they been on the car? If they are a new install and this did not occur prior to their installation then obviously they are "suspect one" but I doubt it.

Case, I would start at the balacer inspection first, then the timing to see if it is electrical (timing, plugs, points if present, etc) then look at internal mechanical (valves, cam, crank-ugh!, or flywheel). I hope this helps, Mark.

jk89cat
04/21/2005, 09:10 AM
also check the cap , it could be arcing when it hits that cylinder . i would also look at the balancer before you try to adjust timing

case12
04/21/2005, 09:43 AM
Great advice. Nice to have some other ideas. Thanks!

BTW, it is an automatic and was running fine until the shop messed with the valve setting (to try to get them quiet) and the timing. It is not just vibration - I can hardly keep the engine running under load when idle (once I get it going and dont accelerate, it is ok). When I take the wire off number 1 plug, it smooths out and is drivable. I will check the balancer, timing, valves and cap.

I dont think the Rousch heads have anything to do with it (they were working fine before). I just mentioned them because I found a different problem with them: I cant get a wrench socket around some of the spark plugs because the stock exhaust just ever so slightly overlaps where the plug goes and is in the way of a using a straight wrench socket. Any ideas on how to get plugs out when the normal wrench socket cant get in there? Thanks, casey

coloradoHCS
04/21/2005, 10:21 AM
Casey, as far as the rough idle. With the further info it sounds as if the timing is not advancing. What condition is your chain in? Also check your advance mechanism, either vacuum or mechanical. I wonder if the chain slipped a gear or two and has taken the timing beyond the limit of the distributor adjustment. I have had this happen where I could not get full advancement in the timing at high RPM and experienced rough running due to a bad chain. It ran fine at idle. A loose/stretched chain can also cause this even if it is in the correct position. These engines left the factory with a nylon gear. these can shear a tooth or two and give you the same problem. Throw in a gear drive and it will sound like a supercharger!!

On my 454 Vette with Hooker headers I had to take a standard deep well socket and turn it down on a lathe to get adequate clearance. Some auto performance stores will sell a "thin wall" socket for this application.

If you can supply further symptoms we may be able to isolate it further. Mark.

GTCS95616
04/21/2005, 10:29 PM
Check for a carbon arch on the inside and outside of the distributor cap.

case12
04/22/2005, 08:18 AM
Thanks guys. I will check these things on Sunday and let you know (out of town right now). I can hope it is the timing setting - the guys at the shop messed around with this a lot.

As for the spark plug access problem - I will check the shops to see if they have a thin wall socket. I checked a few of mine and one is pretty thin, but still wouldnt fit.

As always, you guys are a great help and I will let you know how it goes. Casey

rvrtrash
04/22/2005, 09:22 AM
One last thing that probably isn't the problem but easy to check. If someone put in a later dual advance distributor and have the vac. lines backwards, it will want to die at idle.
Steve

case12
04/27/2005, 10:12 AM
Well, it wasnt the plugs, plug wires, or timing. (What do you all use to set timing on a 289 - 12 degrees TDC? - does having Rousch heads make a difference?). Next look is timing chain and valves. Casey

case12
04/27/2005, 10:32 AM
Check for a carbon arch on the inside and outside of the distributor cap.

checked it and inside is clean. It has electronic ignition added.

case12
04/27/2005, 10:39 AM
Casey, as far as the rough idle. With the further info it sounds as if the timing is not advancing. What condition is your chain in? Also check your advance mechanism, either vacuum or mechanical. I wonder if the chain slipped a gear or two and has taken the timing beyond the limit of the distributor adjustment. I have had this happen where I could not get full advancement in the timing at high RPM and experienced rough running due to a bad chain. It ran fine at idle. A loose/stretched chain can also cause this even if it is in the correct position. These engines left the factory with a nylon gear. these can shear a tooth or two and give you the same problem. Throw in a gear drive and it will sound like a supercharger!!

On my 454 Vette with Hooker headers I had to take a standard deep well socket and turn it down on a lathe to get adequate clearance. Some auto performance stores will sell a "thin wall" socket for this application.

If you can supply further symptoms we may be able to isolate it further. Mark.


I think we are down to the chain or the valves. I could not turn the distributor far enough to get it to idle smoothly (and I was at 20-30 degrees TDC!). Stupid question - if the chain slips, is it possible for it to slip back into correct position? Will let you know what we find next. Casey

rvrtrash
04/27/2005, 11:00 AM
Casey, if the timing chain slipped, it won't go back to the correct spot on it's own. The gears and chain will have to be replaced. Before I did all that though, I would check the electronic ignition. Is it a Petronix type system? I've heard of the conversions failing, so if it is, put the original points, condensor, etc. back in and see if the problem is solved.
Steve

coloradoHCS
04/27/2005, 11:58 AM
Casey, I agree with Steve the chance of the chain slipping back to its original position is not likely. The cam and the crank would be out of alignment and there is little chance of these again being in their proper alignment without taking the chain off and actually moving them into position. You will see the alignment marks if you decide it is the chain and remove the cover.

How was the balancer...good condition?

Certainly check the ignition prior to getting into the chain.

A simple way to see if the valves are closing at TDC or just before is to remove the No. 1 plug and put your thumb over the hole. Remove the cap and note the position of the No 1 wire. Jog the engine and when the rotor comes around to the No 1 wire position your thumb will feel the pressure of the piston coming up with valves closed. It may take 2 full rotations to check this because one rotation will be exhaust and that valve will be open, therefore no pressure as the piston comes up. I have used this on many occasions to check the valve timing.

The HCS I purchased from Bish lost 2 teeth and had very similar symptoms to your car. I did this test and found I was getting pressure at the hole way prior to ingnition with no way to adjust the distributor. I then found two broken teeth on the factory original nylon gear. New timing set and the car runs smooth and is very reponsive. I believe the teeth boke when I retuned for altitude after bringing the car back to Colorado from Michigan. Sometimes changes in the timing will stress old parts and break the weakest link. The teeth of the cam timing gear are designed to be the weakest link.

You can purchase a push button starter with cable from the auto parts store so you can do all the jogging from under the hood. (disconnect the coil wire).
Mark.

case12
05/07/2005, 09:14 PM
Well, it got messy. We adjusted the valves and it just kept getting worse. We have to adjust them to almost no slack to keep the 289 running. Timing is ok, timing chain is ok, distributor is ok. My engine buddy is now convinced that it is the Rousch heads because the push rods are getting grooves cut into them and the rocker arms are getting hit pretty hard.

So, he called his FORD racing buddies and they gave me 2 options. Replace the valve train from stock to an appropriate racing valve train (the prior owner used the stock valve train with the new heads) to go with the Rousch heads ($1000), or put the orignial heads back on. Fortunately I got the original heads from the owner when I bought the car.

I want to take the car back to orgininal so, that is the route we are going. So, next week we send the original heads to the machine shop and also get the hardened seats for the valves.

Sounds odd that this would be the cause to me. I cant believe the heads are causing all this, but these guys are mustang experts (and friends). I will let you know how it goes. Casey

PNewitt
05/07/2005, 09:44 PM
Sorry to hear about the "de-tuning" of having to yank out the Rousch heads.

So, you couldn't replace the pushrods only? I'm sure you can get a lot for them, if you put them on the market.

Have you thought of Ededbrock heads--perhaps later? I can't remember if you mentioned it--but if you use a Cobra intake (302?), I think you'll be happy.

In any case, chalk it up to experience. Make big plans for that Westlake-Gurney heads--total weber setup for next time, OK?

At least you didn't get into a gross engine experience like i did. In my "starving artist dayz" in San Diego, I had to park my car up on a friend's curb to change the freeze plugs, and the idiot neighbor turned on his sprinklers..here comes the water down the gutter...I was wet, and greasy under the car...

NEVER AGAIN! Geesch!.

Paul N.

case12
05/08/2005, 02:30 PM
My engine buddy (who consulted with his FORD racing buddies) said that the correct valve train would be $1000. (But your question has me wondering if just the push rods could be replaced to get the correct clearance??). Anyway, he knew I wanted to take it back to original eventually, so we thought it best to just machine the original heads (harden the seats for unleaded too) for less than $1000. He thinks the performance will be about the same. I have the original intake and carb too, but he suggested keeping my Edlebrock aluminum intake and Edlebrock carb as these are very easy to change later. I am not into racing or performance on the GT/CS - I am more into originality. My buddy said I could clean up the Rousch heads and sell them on eBay for a nice price. Casey

case12
05/08/2005, 02:37 PM
Paul - like your story getting wet in the gutter.

Many years ago, I was working under my Chevy Citation (dont laugh - needed it for the family) in the driveway. It was on an incline driveway, and I didnt have it blocked. My then 3 year old (who is 18 now) was playing around inside the car while I was working on it and pulled it into neutral. The car began rolling down the driveway and I was under it!. The rear tire rolled down onto my arm and chest and I was pinned! (Thank God it was not my neck!) A construction worker building a house across the street heard me yelling and came and pushed the car off me. I had tire tread imprint bruises on my arm and chest for a few weeks after! Needless to say, there are about a dozen lessons learned in that story. :-[ Casey

rvrtrash
05/08/2005, 04:14 PM
Let's see. Should I tell the story about changing a TR-6 transmission in a parking lot in the pouring rain or the one about being pinned up against a Forest Service gate when my Fairlane dropped out of park into reverse while I was standing behind it? We must really love these metal beasts to put up with the abuse they give us.
Steve

PNewitt
05/08/2005, 05:03 PM
We'll sometime have to do a thread on engine and repair "horror stories".

Sorry about the tire-tread-on-the-body story--ouch! (sounds like a bad CSI storyline....). Maybe you could get one of those T-Shirts with the patriotic phrase: "Don't Tread on Me"??

At least we're all here to talk (and laugh) about it...

Paul N.

hookedtrout
05/08/2005, 05:11 PM
When I went to Fremont CA this past summer my dad was giving me a lesson on the 1917 Model T Speedster that I'm some day adding to my collection. Quite the interesting cars. The first lesson left me so baffled that all I got out of the conversation was you better have a hold of the E-Brake when you climb on after crank starting it because it pops off when you step on the running board and takes off on you. Lesson 2 I took a video camera and made him start over. Holy cow what a beautiful car it is but complex to drive. Won't have to worry about anyone under about 80 stealing it due to lack of knowledge of how to even start it and the odds of anyone that old attempting it are pretty slim.

Hook

case12
05/14/2005, 07:12 AM
OK, my engine troubles got more complex. Turns out the machine shop says my original heads have worn out valve guides that are quite expensive to repair. They have a pair of original 289 heads that they can sell me for much cheaper than repairing the original ones.

My question - were the heads number matching to the block? I like all original, but if there is no numbers matching, then another set of original heads shouldnt matter. Does anyone know? (note - my GT/CS is a driver that I like to be original - but will not be concourse). Casey

Russ
05/14/2005, 07:54 AM
Casey, You can find the casting dates on the heads near the valve springs. Also cast into the heads are "289" or "302". Usually "302" indicates a later head than 1968. The casting dates will help you identify if they are "correct" for your car. Russ

68gt390
05/14/2005, 08:35 AM
Casey;
Don't think they were #'s matching to the block. I would want to make sure the date code was correct for year of production. From looking at my parts identifier book I found the following info:

289 - 2V: From 8/1/67 Part#C80Z-6049-E & Casting #C80E-6090-M.

289 - 2V: With manual Trans Part#C8DZ-6049-D & Casting #C80E-6090-L.

If you wanted to use 302 heads look for the following:

302 - IMCO Emissions. Includes GT350 Part#C8AZ-6049-J & Part#C80E-6090-J.

302 - Except IMCO. Includes GT350 Part#C8AZ-6049-F & Part #C80E-6090-K.

The heads on my GT Coupe just took a dump so since my car is not concourse I'm looking at a set of aftermarket heads. Just not sure what I want yet. Besides, the flow capability on the Cast Iron GT heads wasn't the greatest in the world.

Hope this helps and doesn't make the water muddier.

Don

case12
05/14/2005, 09:04 AM
The original heads have 289 cast into them and a "66" (not 68)cast into them (I dont have them with me right now as they are at the shop - but this is what i remember). These are the original heads.

If the heads are not supposed to be numbers matching, then I start to feel better about using a different set of 'vintage' correctly dated heads.

Don, when I am done with this project I will have the Rousch heads (some people call them DARP? DART? sp?) to get rid off. You might be interested. Casey

meadowsdk28
05/14/2005, 11:10 AM
Case,

I'm pretty much in agreement with timing chain theory.

However, humor me,

Before you pull the front cover, make sure you pull the valve cover and check for a broken valve spring on that cylinder. Just a hunch. If you have an air hose with a compressor, go to the parts store and get a plug adaptor. This screws into the cylinder where the plug would be. Plug on your air compressor hose. The air pressure keeps the valves from dropping into the cylinder. They make a special tool that by removing a rocker arm, putting the nut back on you can remove the valve spring keepers and the valve springs to inspect. A ball joint fork will work just as easilly. Physically look at both those valve springs on #1. One may be broken and you don't always see it at first especially with the spring not under pressure. At a minimum, look at the springs while you're cranking the engine over a few times (remember, pull the coil wire unless you enjoy a face full of oil).

Timing does some strange things, but so does screwed up valvetrain. I keep going back to you talking about how smooth it is until you plug in #1. There is something to that IMHO.

Also, I'm shell-shocked. A few years ago I had a valve spring keeper sheer on me (not even going fast, just cruising down the highway) and by the time I heard the noise and reached down to turn off the key, the valve dropped into the cylinder, the piston hit the valve a few dozen times breaking the piston up into about 10 pieces leaving the rod and wrist pin to quickly beat a hole in the side of my cylinder wall, ruining a really good Mexican block. All the high nickel content and strength of a Mexican block didn't stop a rod from doing it's harm.

So, yeah, call me paranoid on valve type issues.

rvrtrash
05/14/2005, 11:49 AM
The heads aren't numbered by serial number but they are date coded and have different combustion chamber sizes. As for the valve guides, it's common with older heads to have to put in new guides (I don't care for knurling myself). You should also put in hardened seats. If the heads the shop has hasn't had this done, I wouldn't bother getting them, just fix yours, but consider getting an estimate at another shop also. Something sounds a little odd.

Steve

meadowsdk28
05/14/2005, 12:31 PM
Well shoot, Disregard my last post. ::) I guess I didn't notice the 2nd page. Case, If you can't find any other heads, I'm pretty sure I have a set of heads you can have. 2 sets if you want a set of 351 W heads. They're both cast iron. If you do, I'll check it out. You're not that far from me and we could meet at the border or something. Let me know. Hit my email.

case12
05/14/2005, 03:21 PM
The heads aren't numbered by serial number but they are date coded and have different combustion chamber sizes. As for the valve guides, it's common with older heads to have to put in new guides (I don't care for knurling myself). You should also put in hardened seats. If the heads the shop has hasn't had this done, I wouldn't bother getting them, just fix yours, but consider getting an estimate at another shop also. Something sounds a little odd.

What is "knurling"?

My heads to redo with hardened seat was about $400. To redo the valve guides was going to be a couple hundred more (they never said, i am just guessing). They have a set of original 289 heads already machined, new valves, the works and with hardened seats for $375. I will make sure they are date coded correctly. Otherwise, sounds like I am ok not using the originals. Casey

Steve

Mosesatm
05/14/2005, 07:02 PM
Knurling is the process of making the diameter of the guide smaller by making the walls look like a cheese grater. Some material sticks out and some is recessed. It is just a temporary fix since the "teeth" get worn down fairly quickly.

case12
05/15/2005, 05:30 PM
Here she is - Roush heads off, ready for new vintage heads next week. Casey

390cs68rcode
05/15/2005, 05:37 PM
PLEASE cover that bad boy up!

kinda like having your fly open and not wearing underwear!


;)

68gt390
05/15/2005, 05:44 PM
PLEASE cover that bad boy up!

kinda like having your fly open and not wearing underwear!


;)


Jason;
Now that's a good one, I'm still laughing.

Don ;D

390cs68rcode
05/15/2005, 05:47 PM
PLEASE cover that bad boy up!

kinda like having your fly open and not wearing underwear!


;)


Jason;
Now that's a good one, I'm still laughing.

Don ;D


seeing someones pistons seems kinda.............personal.

;D

rvrtrash
05/16/2005, 12:30 AM
I'm such a slut! :o

rvrtrash
05/16/2005, 12:32 AM
Dang, my attachment didn't go through. Let's try again.

Steve

390cs68rcode
05/16/2005, 05:08 AM
;)

Mustanglvr
05/16/2005, 06:44 AM
:o ::)

case12
05/16/2005, 12:42 PM
I would have never guessed that showing my engine would get such a response! ::) I almost couldnt stop laughing. I tried to show the email train to my wife, but she shook her head and walked away.

Where are the guys looking for the VIN on the block somewhere? Casey

mmarsalone
05/16/2005, 02:21 PM
Where are the guys looking for the VIN on the block somewhere? Casey


Casey, the partial VIN on mine is on the flat spot at the back of the block, just behind where the intake manifold would be. Or, I could say just in front of the bell housing. I hope that helps.

Mike

Mosesatm
05/17/2005, 09:27 AM
I tried to show the email train to my wife, but she shook her head and walked away.



Casey, don't let your wife fool you. Women are just as lockerroomhumorish as men, maybe more so. In fact, if the men in the company I work for told the jokes that the women tell we'd all get sued for harrassment.

I've done a lot of research on this area and found that the women we know and love behave totally differently around other women. My extensive research leads me to the conclusion that women have a secret agenda and are members of a great and powerful cult whose sole purpose is to manipulate men into doing their bidding, therefore ruling the world! Some associates of mine think their goal is to just drive us all crazy but women are much smarter, and much more....uh....industrious....than that. If they drove us all crazy they wouldn't be able to use us as they see fit. No, they rule the world alright but they do it from behind the scenes by manipulating us. Very smart on their part, and not all that difficult. We die earlier because of all the stress while they hold their secret meetings with their secret greetings where they tell dirty jokes and drink margaritas. Have you ever seen that little smirk women give each other when they pass each other on the street? They lead us to believe that it's a smirk of disdain for the other woman but it's really a sign that they know something we don't and they are united in their goal.

It's all a great conspiracy I tell you!!! I'll continue my research and report back later. If I mysteriously disappear soon it will be because they know I'm onto something and must silence me.

Mustanglvr
05/17/2005, 11:44 AM
Don`t get me started Arlie. :-X ;) Rhonda

meadowsdk28
05/17/2005, 02:49 PM
See, she's in on it ,too. Rhonda is running the "near apathetic" reply as per Standing Operating procedure 003-07-05A. I figured that was what she would say. I've almost got their code cracked. :D

Mustanglvr
05/18/2005, 06:47 AM
You guys give us women too much credit, but then again, thats the way it should be. ;D Rhonda

nfrntau
05/18/2005, 07:38 AM
How to Make a Woman Happy

It's not difficult to make a woman happy. A man only needs to be:

1. a friend
2. a companion
3. a lover
4. a brother
5. a father
6. a master
7. a chef
8. an electrician
9. a carpenter
10. a plumber
11. a mechanic
12. a decorator
13. a stylist
14. a sexologist
15. a gynecologist
16. a psychologist
17. a pest exterminator
18. a psychiatrist
19. a healer
20. a good listener
21. an organizer
22. a good father
23. very clean
24. sympathetic
25. athletic
26. warm
27. attentive
28. gallant
29. intelligent
30. funny
31. creative
32. tender
33. strong
34. understanding
35. tolerant
36. prudent
37. ambitious
38. capable
39. courageous
40. determined
41. true
42. dependable
43. passion ate
44. compassionate

WITHOUT FORGETTING TO:

45. give her compliments regularly
46. love shopping
47. be honest
48. be very rich
49. not stress her out
50. not look at other girls

AND AT THE SAME TIME, YOU MUST ALSO:

51. give her lots of attention, but expect little yourself
52. give her lots of time, especially time for herself
53. give her lots of space, never worrying about where she goes

IT IS VERY IMPORTANT:

54. Never to forget:
* birthdays
* anniversaries
* arrangements she makes



HOW TO MAKE A MAN HAPPY



1. Show up naked
2. Bring food
3. Hand over the remote.

rvrtrash
05/18/2005, 10:05 AM
LMAO. ;D

Steve

Mustanglvr
05/18/2005, 02:11 PM
Nfrntau, you forgot "Good Looking". :D Rhonda

Mustanglvr
05/18/2005, 02:20 PM
I tried to show the email train to my wife, but she shook her head and walked away.



Casey, don't let your wife fool you. Women are just as lockerroomhumorish as men, maybe more so. In fact, if the men in the company I work for told the jokes that the women tell we'd all get sued for harrassment.

I've done a lot of research on this area and found that the women we know and love behave totally differently around other women. My extensive research leads me to the conclusion that women have a secret agenda and are members of a great and powerful cult whose sole purpose is to manipulate men into doing their bidding, therefore ruling the world! Some associates of mine think their goal is to just drive us all crazy but women are much smarter, and much more....uh....industrious....than that. If they drove us all crazy they wouldn't be able to use us as they see fit. No, they rule the world alright but they do it from behind the scenes by manipulating us. Very smart on their part, and not all that difficult. We die earlier because of all the stress while they hold their secret meetings with their secret greetings where they tell dirty jokes and drink margaritas. Have you ever seen that little smirk women give each other when they pass each other on the street? They lead us to believe that it's a smirk of disdain for the other woman but it's really a sign that they know something we don't and they are united in their goal.

It's all a great conspiracy I tell you!!! I'll continue my research and report back later. If I mysteriously disappear soon it will be because they know I'm onto something and must silence me.




Arlie, my sister Anita read your post about your conspiracy theory and the only comment she had was "And don`t you forget it!" LMAO, Rhonda

case12
05/26/2005, 09:16 AM
Well, new heads are on, engine is running. No more valve noise.

BUT, engine still seems to be missing and under load has trouble idling and when accelerating the engine still vibrates like its is going to come off its mounts.

My engine buddy swears it didnt do it when he test drove it. I drove it home last night and I thought the fenders were going to shake off when accelerating (worse when going up hill). I could also feel and hear the engine "lurching" when at cruise speed (what I mean is it feel/sounds like I am slightly pushing the pedal and letting up every 2 seconds). To keep it from dying under load when stopped, I have to set the idle to 2000rpm.

So, something odd is going on. He is coming over today to check it again.

We know it is not heads, valves, timing - maybe it is electronic ignition or coil. (When a coil is going bad, what generally happens?).

I hope we get this straightened out in time for the Carroll Shelby show on Saturday! Casey

390cs68rcode
05/26/2005, 09:37 AM
firing order problem?

case12
05/26/2005, 09:43 AM
Checked that before we put the new heads on, when we had the same problem - all ok. Didnt check it last night, but why would my mechanic friend not have the problem when he test drove it after putting it back together, and then I pick it up the next day and it nearly shakes the fenders off? (other than I may be cursed).

Hopefully we find the gremlin today. I just wondered if the electronic iginition or coil could be going haywire (again - I am not an engine expert - so, I am a little at the mercy of my mechanic friend). Casey

390cs68rcode
05/26/2005, 10:16 AM
yep, you are cursed. Send it to me and I will put it into the Mustang retirement home and museum at my house. ;)

CJ
05/26/2005, 10:29 AM
Casey

You may want to post your problem at this particular site. I have had good results from the folks that read this site. http://www.hotrodders.com/

Claude

meadowsdk28
05/26/2005, 10:46 AM
Mustang retirement home and museum

Wow, is that a not-for-profit!?! Are you thinking of francising because I think a midwest location would be great...specifically my house!!

Casey, just a thought. I may be way out of my league here. Do you have an electric choke? It's the season to adjust those and I've seen an out of adjustment choke so some "crazy" things to an engine. Vibrations, surging, rough idle, lack of power and a kind of vapor lock symptom. Also, maybe I missed the post, did you say you checked your vacuum advance?

coloradoHCS
05/26/2005, 11:06 AM
Casey, are you sure your distributor is advancing it's full range under load or at increasing RPM? Is the distributor and shaft OK? In other words no binding?

You did say the balancer was OK wasn't it?

If timing, advance, vacuum, wires and plugs have been checked and cleared, if engine balancer is ok then I would look at the fuel side.

1) How is the choke? Symptoms could indicate a bad choke.

2) How is the fuel? Did the car sit all winter with less then a full tank of fuel? You may have moisture in the gasoline or just old gasoline.

3) How long did your friend drive it? Could it be temperature related? Again a choke??

4)By pulling number 1 off line does it smooth out again?

5)Is there any way to dyno the car for fuel, spark readings?

Mark.

case12
05/26/2005, 11:10 AM
Yes, I do have an electric choke, and it does seem to be working. When it is hot, it is full open and the problem still occurs.

I am not an expert on vaccum advance. But I have run it with the advance hooked up, and with the advance plugged (distributer plugged, carb side open) and it still has a problem.

I think jbsteven knows more about this "curse" we speak of than he is letting on....I bet the lift of the "curse" is in some secret holy book that only auto shop owners have.... ;)

coloradoHCS
05/26/2005, 11:19 AM
Coming originaly from Chicago I have experience with the curse of the "Billy Goat". Those curses can be powerful. If that is the case I am in over my head!

meadowsdk28
05/26/2005, 11:24 AM
Do you have a buddy around home that has a like type carburetor that you could slap on your car for a test drive? That could eliminate fuel as a possible cause. (other than old fuel or water in the fuel or fuel pump or a partially blocked line or fuel filter of course)

meadowsdk28
05/26/2005, 11:26 AM
Coming originaly from Chicago I have experience with the curse of the "Billy Goat". Those curses can be powerful. If that is the case I am in over my head!


So, if the Cubs win the world series, Casey's problem will heal itself!?! Cool, he's only got to live with it until October.....Aww what am I saying, he'll have to live with it for another 50 years!!

coloradoHCS
05/26/2005, 11:42 AM
I like the carb exchange idea. That could eliminate a whole range of possibilities.

As far as the Cubs....50 years may be too kind. After the '69 season when they broke my heart I hope for the best and expect the worst. On the bright side maybe the Rockies will win 20 games this year!

case12
05/26/2005, 12:31 PM
Cubs - I am too young for the curse of the goat. Its this guy we are looking for - surely he is causing my engine problems! Casey

"A Chicago Cubs fan, Bartman reached for and tried to catch a ball that might have been caught by outfielder Moises Alou. Some speculate this interference cost the Cubs a chance at the World Series."

case12
05/26/2005, 12:39 PM
Casey, are you sure your distributor is advancing it's full range under load or at increasing RPM? Is the distributor and shaft OK? In other words no binding? [DONT KNOW]

You did say the balancer was OK wasn't it? [I MENTIONED THIS ONE BECAUSE IT WAS SUGGESTED BEFORE, BUT MY MECHANIC FRIEND DID NOT CHECK THIS CAUSE HE SAYS IT IS HIGHLY UNLIKELY AND HE HAS ONLY SEEN A FEW PROBLEMS IN HIS CAREER]

If timing, advance, vacuum, wires and plugs have been checked and cleared, if engine balancer is ok then I would look at the fuel side. [TIMING IS GOOD, WIRES AND PLUGS ARE NEW]

1) How is the choke? Symptoms could indicate a bad choke. [I WATCH IT CLOSE WHEN COLD, AND OPEN WHEN HOT - WHEN HOT IT IS WIDE OPEN - SO WOULDNT ANY PROBLEM CAUSED BY CHOKE BY A MUTE POINT THEN?]

2) How is the fuel? Did the car sit all winter with less then a full tank of fuel? You may have moisture in the gasoline or just old gasoline. [HAD PROBLEM DURING WINTER AND NOW - COULD BE, BUT NOT LIKELY]

3) How long did your friend drive it? Could it be temperature related? Again a choke?? [I DROVE IT COLD AND HOT AND FELT AND PROBLEM OCCURS COLD AND HOT]

4)By pulling number 1 off line does it smooth out again? [NOT SINCE WE CHANGED THE HEADS]

5)Is there any way to dyno the car for fuel, spark readings? [I DONT KNOW HOW TO DO THIS - BUT COULD BE SOMETHING I CAN LOOK INTO]

Mark.


MARK, SEE MY ANSWERS IN YOUR POST IN CAPS. THANKS FOR ALL THE IDEAS. I DO HAVE AN EXACT SAME EDLEBROCK 4 BARREL CARB ON MY 66 THAT I COULD TRADE OUT JUST TO SEE IF IT CARB RELATED. WILL LET YOU KNOW. GREAT IDEAS. CASEY

meadowsdk28
05/26/2005, 12:47 PM
On the bright side maybe the Rockies will win 20 games this year!

Hey, they only need 7 more. Know what? I was at the first and second home games ever of the rockies inaugural season, back at Mile High. They won both, also. Had one h@ll of an expansion team back then. Gallaraga, Vinnie Castillo, Eric Davis back when he was so-so!

Casey, it doesn't even have to be a truly like carb. If you have a 4 bbl and even know a guy with a 2 bbl, adapters at Autozone and the like are cheap. Anything as long as you KNOW it is a good carb.

murf104
05/26/2005, 12:50 PM
I was born in 1944 and do not wish to live forever - just want to live long enough to see the Cubs win the world series - on second thought that might be a little longer than forever.

meadowsdk28
05/26/2005, 12:55 PM
I DO HAVE AN EXACT SAME EDLEBROCK 4 BARREL CARB ON MY 66 THAT I COULD TRADE OUT JUST TO SEE IF IT CARB RELATED.
Well, why didn't you say so!! ;) Yeah that will interesting. let us know. This is bugging me now.

Also,
Don't tick Bartman off, I hear he's a heck of a mechanic
LMAO ;D

coloradoHCS
05/26/2005, 02:47 PM
BARTMAN.....it took a years supply of Tequila to be able to say his name without twitching! As far as the Rockies, the expansion years were a lot fun but like the Cubs they let the good players go due to salary issues.

Casey, on the dyno, any good carb shop or engine tune shop should have one. This would be a last resort because it will set you back $100 or so for a couple of pulls. I would use it if all else fails. They can check a lot of things while on the dyno such as distributor advance, air/fuel ratio, timing, HP at rear wheels, torque, etc.

Couple of more points. I have seen bad balancers cause shimmy at different RPM's. They can breakdown with age. Just glance up there and see if there is any seperation. It may take a small mirror but I am not sure if you would have to drop the pulley.

For water in the gasoline. Disconnect the coil wire. Pull the line off at the carb and crank the engine dumping some gasoline into a clear jar. See if there is any seperation of water and gasoline. Short of that run down to NAPA or similar and get a can of HEET to dump in the tank. This will evaporate any water in the gasoline. Water comes from condensation forming in cold weather in a less then full tank of gas.

I agree keep us posted, this is a true mystery, Mark.

case12
05/27/2005, 08:47 PM
The saga continues. I may actually learn to be an engine guy myself. Today I decided to work on my own (took the day off from work). I started pulling one plug wire at a time and found two cylinders did not seem to make a difference when I pulled the wires. The first cylinder (#8) I pulled the plug on had a poorly gapped plug. Easy fix. The second cylinder (#3) I pulled the plug on - no burn on the plug - it looked nearly new (no nice tan color). Checked wires, replaced plug, replaced coil, new cap, new rotor - no difference.

Went and bought a compression gauge. Checked compression on all cylinders - 120-150 -Good. Except the cylinder #3 that had the plug with no burn on it was 0 - yes, zero. I then put a little oil in that cylinder (see, I am learning) to see if it is a ring problem or a valve problem. Checked the pressure again, and zero.

Sooo, I am guessing a valve problem (with the new heads?) on that cylinder. Dont think it could be a flag lobe on a cam? Thoughts?

A non-firing cylinder would definitely cause all the problems I described in this post of my engine saga.

Problem is - with a cylinder not firing, I wont make the Carroll Shelby show tmmrw with the GT/CS - I am too concerned over what may be causing it. :'( :'( I will at least ride along with someone else.

Mustanglvr
05/27/2005, 11:45 PM
:(So sorry to hear about that Casey. It would have been awesome for you to take your car there. I`m sure you will have fun and enjoy the show anyway. Rhonda

68gt390
05/28/2005, 08:28 AM
Casey;
I've got almost the same problem with my CS. She dumped on me a couple of weeks ago. Did the same thing, checked carb etc. and came up with nothing. Did the compression check and got almost the same reading as you 140 - 150 psi on all cylinders (motor manual says 390 should have 170 to 210 psi). Talked to a motor guy and he said readings are fine. Pulled the rocker arm assembley and found that several of my valve stems are mushroomed pretty bad as well as several rocker arms being concave and grooved pretty bad. Pulled the heads and am getting ready to send them out to be reworked. Will be putting on roller rockers this time.

Don ???

case12
05/28/2005, 06:29 PM
Carroll Shelby show was awesome today! I was not able to take the GT/CS due to the cylinder problem. I went with my friend in a caravan with the 68 Shelby convertible. I was able to get my package of goodies even though my car could not make it. Carroll was not there (just underwent radiation for some skin cancer), but he did sign everyone's dash plaques - so I got the real deal. I will post some amazing pictures with Jon on another thread for the show. When 100's of Shelbys, Tigers, Panteras, GLHS's, Cobras, Chargers (Shelby) and even a couple of vipers are in one place it is amazing! BUT, there was only one GT/CS there - (and Doug, it was sunlit gold with a black vinyl top). I missed my chance, but it was a great show! :'( :)Casey

case12
05/28/2005, 06:32 PM
Engine update. No compression on cylinder #3. After the Shelby Show today, my engine buddy came by and did a valve adjustment on that cylinder and it runs beautiful. BUT - makes a lot of valve noise. One lifter is not holding pressure. Ugh! :( Now we have to change the lifters. But at least we have it nailed down. Casey

meadowsdk28
05/29/2005, 05:28 AM
That is great news Casey. I think! Keep us posted. Keep this up and you'll get ASE cetified!

coloradoHCS
06/01/2005, 11:30 AM
Casey, been out of town so I missed the play by play, but it sounds like you are on to something! Hopefully it is fixed in time for the season, Mark.

case12
06/02/2005, 10:07 AM
Thanks Mark. We are doing the lifters this Saturday. Cross your fingers that we finally get it this time. Casey

68gt350
06/02/2005, 02:35 PM
if the problem only occures when spark is applied to the cylinder, then it eliminates all electrical problems. regardless of wether or not the plug wire is atatched or not, the electrical system is stiff functioning, so that is not the problem. if it only happens when spark is applied, then the combustion is what is causing the problem. i can almost guarantee that it has nothing to do with electrical. do a compression test on all cylinders and check to make so that the #1 cyl is the same or very close to the same PSI as the rest of the cylinders. ifthe proble only occures when there is combustion in the cylinder then it could be that your valves are not opening or closing properly, but that is an easy fix, a quick way to check it would be to pull the valve cover off and just do a visual check, disconnect the coil wire and crank the motor and watch to see if there are any abnormalities in the #1 cyl. you may also have aproblem closer to the crank shaft. the vibration would be occuring when pressure is put on the cyl. you may have a rod that doesnt fit snug against the crank, or it is even possible that you have blown a hole in the piston and the combustion is sneaking into the crankcase. but a compression test can help you determine if this is the problem.

case12
06/02/2005, 04:55 PM
Thanks for the input. It turned out to be no compression in the #3 cylinder due to improper valve adjustment. When valve adjusted, the problem went away, but the exhaust lifter is bleeding down, and thus lots of valve noise. So, we replace lifters this weekend. Thanks! Casey

case12
06/06/2005, 08:01 AM
Lifters replaced and all is working well! We still have some valve noise (tapping and clacking) that we will probably have to go back in and adjust after I drive it a while and the lifters are good a full of oil.

I want to thank everyone for their advise on this engine saga. I have learned a whole lot! Mostly learned to take it one step at a time to narrow it down to the problem area (in this case - one bad lifter).

Now I am ready to do some driving! Casey :) :)

meadowsdk28
06/06/2005, 10:40 AM
Good for you, Casey. Get out and have some fun.

nfrntau
06/06/2005, 07:56 PM
Yay !!
Cheers to you
Enjoy

coloradoHCS
06/07/2005, 08:06 AM
Way to go Casey! Mark.

case12
06/19/2005, 08:39 AM
Well you all would be proud of me - I just set all my valve lash and got the valve train quiet (never done that before) and car runs beautifully. I still have one very annoying problem - I had and still have a metal clanking noise coming from the valve train (I think) on the 1234 side. It is NOT your typical valve noise which is normally a clacking or tapping noise. It almost sounds like taking two metal rods in your hand and hitting them together (it is that loud). I cannot tell which cylinder (if any) it is coming from - even with the poor man's stethescope method (broom handle). Valve adjustment does not seem to make a difference. One mechanic I took it to thought it might be a water pump (or other) squeak echoing in the engine. We took all belts off, ran engine, and still have the noise. It is so loud and metallic sounding, it is hard to believe it is inside the engine (we thought it should be more muffled). Maybe a push rod hitting a bad lifter would make this sound? (but, we just replaced all the lifters). fyi- I have put about 75 miles on the car hoping that a lifter may have air in it still?

You all helped me get this far, I just thought I would get a few more ideas before I put on the "surgical gloves" and head back into the patient. Casey

Mosesatm
06/19/2005, 08:45 PM
Is the noise continuous and consistent, on again and off again, or totally random?

Can you tell if the noise matches the engine's rpms or 1/2 the rpms, or no relation to the rpms at all?

case12
06/20/2005, 09:07 AM
Arlie, I like your questions. They are making me think - I had run out of ideas. Remember, I am more of a detailing guy, and not an engine guy - so, I am learning.

The noise started about 40 miles after I had replaced all the lifters. Drove around for a while, everything sounded fine, and then it started. It does it hot and cold.

It will go away sometimes, though I have not been able to deduce any pattern. It is there 99% of the time. It is loud enough for cars around you at the stop light to hear it. I adjusted the valve lash hoping it was a loose push rod - I got all the valves sounding good, but this noise is still there. (maybe bad brand new lifter, lifter with air in it still? - but it runs great? it sounds just like banging two metal rods together - and I cannot isolate it, except it seems to be coming from the 1234 side).

It is definitely tied to engine rpm. I dont know if it is full rpm or 1/2 rpm (how would I tell, and what is the significance?).

I know I am asking the near impossible - describing a noise to a web site and hoping for some ideas. :-\ Thanks, Casey

rvrtrash
06/20/2005, 09:47 AM
It is definitely tied to engine rpm. I dont know if it is full rpm or 1/2 rpm (how would I tell, and what is the significance?).



If it is the same frequency as a ticking lifter, the problem is in the top end/ valvetrain. Loosen one rocker arm till it starts to clatter and see if the other noise is in sync with it. If the noise is twice as fast, it's in the bottom end. I haven't been reading the threads a lot lately so forgive me if I repeat anything. If you pull all the plugs and turn the engine over, you may be able to hear the noise and locate it's source better without the sound of the engine running to mask it.
Steve

Mosesatm
06/20/2005, 10:31 AM
If you find it is at engine rpm one thing to do is to start at one end of the 1234 bank and GENTLY AND SLOWLY tighten down on a rocker nut until the valve stays open. If the sound goes away with the valve open the noise is probably a stress related, bottom end problem, usually a bad wrist pin. If the sound doesn't go away readjust your lifter back to where it was and then keep working down the line. Since all you are trying to do is open a valve to eliminate the stress on the piston you don't need to perform this test on every rocker, just one per cylinder.

case12
06/20/2005, 12:31 PM
Steve, Arlie, Thanks. Now for the stupid questions:

1. It sounds like both of your ideas require me to do this with the engine running and valve cover off. Right? I was taught to use a piece of cardboard about 6"x12" as a shield to keep oil from going everywhere when doing this. (I dont have an extra valve cover to cut).

2. I dont understand why the bottom end (presumably the lifter riding on the cam) would be twice as fast as the top end (the push rod hitting the rocker arm)?

3. Arlie, I presume your method of gently and slowly is because I dont want the valve hitting the piston - right?

4. I noticed as I was using the remote start to turn over the engine while setting the valves (cold) on 1234 that number 1 intake was not oozing oil like the the other rockers. (just wild guessing if this has anything to do with anything).

Casey

Mosesatm
06/20/2005, 12:58 PM
Steve, Arlie, Thanks. Now for the stupid questions:

1. It sounds like both of your ideas require me to do this with the engine running and valve cover off. Right? I was taught to use a piece of cardboard about 6"x12" as a shield to keep oil from going everywhere when doing this. (I dont have an extra valve cover to cut).

2. I dont understand why the bottom end (presumably the lifter riding on the cam) would be twice as fast as the top end (the push rod hitting the rocker arm)?

3. Arlie, I presume your method of gently and slowly is because I dont want the valve hitting the piston - right?

4. I noticed as I was using the remote start to turn over the engine while setting the valves (cold) on 1234 that number 1 intake was not oozing oil like the the other rockers. (just wild guessing if this has anything to do with anything).

Casey


Casey,
1. Auto parts store sell rocker clips. I don't remember how much they cost but they are cheap.

2. Everything from the cam upward is considered the top-end. Since there are twice as many lifters as there are cylinders the lifters and related top-end hardware runs a half the speed of the cylinder. For example the intake valve and associated hardware only operates on the intake stroke but not the exhaust stroke.

3. Right. I've always adjusted hydraulic lifters with the car running. If I can remember correctly the method is to take the lifter down to where it stops clattering then 3/4 of a turn past that point.

4. No oil to that rocker could definitly be a symptom of something wrong with that part of the engine. Since the noise started shortly after you replaced the lifters it's probably an upper end issue and the best place to check first is the rocker that is not receiving oil. It may be a bent or plugged push rod, a lifter that can't relax, or a flat-spotted cam (probably not since the car runs well).

Anyone else have any ideas?

mmarsalone
06/20/2005, 01:11 PM
2. I dont understand why the bottom end (presumably the lifter riding on the cam) would be twice as fast as the top end (the push rod hitting the rocker arm)?




Casey,

The crank turns twice as fast as the cam. The piston makes two strokes for each cylinder. This is done by the size of the sprockets on the crank and the cam. Hope this helps. And as said, the bottom end is the crank, rods, and pistons.

Mike

xcodegtcs
06/24/2005, 10:35 AM
I happen to be looking at the site for the first time in ages an thought I would chime in on your post.

Even on the 6th page on did not read where this issue was resolved. So a few comments /questions( forgive me if I missed something in the 6 pages).

have you checked the cam with a dial indicator. You can do this in the valley with a magnetic dial indicator. If you don't own one and don't whnt to fork out for one you may be able to rent want from a tool rental place. With this you should be able to verify lift on your intake and exhaust side. They should be within a similar range.

Have you looked at push rod length. This varies when you change form one head to another(particularly aftermaket). You may research this. What push rods are in there, stock? performance. Was the length different for the Roush heads.

Here's my thinking based on your comments. If you have to adjust the the rockers all the way down the push roods may of been too short for the heads the heads. A hydralic lifter may soak up the issue for a while. But if this geometry is incorrect it will wear out your cam and lifter in short order. I mean minutes. If the cam is infact damaged. You still have the same problem which will destroy the idle. You may look into one of the books like " how to build your small block ford". It may help greatly in the dimensions area. Or talk to the manufacture of the heads for recommendations with your combo. Valve train must all be within limits. On some motors milling alone dictates a shorter or adjustable length push rod.

You may also look for other forums that are in the motor area. Their are a few guys that can help you find you issue over average mechanics. I.E. http://www.network54.com/Forum/119417

Mosesatm
06/24/2005, 11:27 AM
Great point!

case12
06/24/2005, 01:53 PM
XcodeGTCS, Thanks for the input. I am betting that my cam is ok since I now have the engine running very good. The push rods are brand new and were purchased to match the stock heads (we switched back to stock heads). The lifters are brand new too, because one of them was bad and causing no compression in one cylinder. So, all that is back to normal. The "new" problem is the metal clinking noise (very different sound from valve train tap noise). I have adjusted the valves and it does not go away. This weekend I plan to check the one push rod to see if it is clogged (not oiling the rocker enough) and go through some of the tests Arlie and Steve suggested. I am hoping it is not a bad (brand new) lifter, as that will take more time to get to. Casey

case12
06/25/2005, 04:25 PM
Woo Hoo ;D ;D ;D, I solved the problem! It turns out one of the rocker arm's tiny hole for letting the oil through was clogged! So the new lifter and push rod was getting oil up to the lifter but no further. This is what was causing the loud metal clanging noise, but the engine still ran good - I suppose no oil would do that :-[. I cleared it out with a push pin, readjusted the valves - and now it runs better and quieter than a new car! As I have mentioned, I am not an engine guy, but I have sure learned a lot, and got a lot of help from the board here. Thanks everyone - I am now a happy GT/CS driver ;D ;D. (What? .... I think I hear another noise coming from the rear... :-X :-X). You guys are great. Thanks, Casey

hookedtrout
06/25/2005, 04:57 PM
Congrats Casey, nice to see all the smiles and know you have a small weight off your shoulders. Now go give them streets heck, would ya. ;D

Hook

case12
06/25/2005, 08:33 PM
So the new lifter and push rod was getting oil up to the lifter but no further. This is what was causing the loud metal clanging noise, but the engine still ran good - I suppose no oil would do that :-[.


...meant to say the lifter and push rod were getting oil up to the rocker, but no further.....

meadowsdk28
06/27/2005, 07:56 AM
So the new lifter and push rod was getting oil up to the lifter but no further. This is what was causing the loud metal clanging noise, but the engine still ran good - I suppose no oil would do that :-[.


Yeah, I was just about to tell you to check that...I knew that must have been what the problem was...Yeah, that's the ticket!!

Seriously, congrats!!