View Full Version : GT Vs GT/CS


Mosesatm
05/26/2005, 01:20 PM
If a '68 GT and a GT/CS were both on ebay and both had EXACTLY the same options and equipment, and both were in EXACTLY the same condition (let's say a 3 year old restoration), which one do you think would sell for more? Assuming none of us bid on the cars.

As much as I like the California Specials I think the GT would bring in a higher bid, even though that makes no sense to me.

What do you think?

390cs68rcode
05/26/2005, 01:28 PM
yep non CS would go for more unless it had a 390 in it then I would be all over it! ;)

Mosesatm
05/26/2005, 01:39 PM
I know a guy who has a Boss 429 motor that he took out of his race boat. Maybe you could squeeze it into the engine bay of one of your California Specials. Now that would be an interesting car!

390cs68rcode
05/26/2005, 01:41 PM
not gonna happen with one of my babies. How about yours? ;D

Mosesatm
05/26/2005, 01:42 PM
Nissan 3.5L ;D

PNewitt
05/26/2005, 02:35 PM
Is this a trick question, like: "If a rooster laid an egg on a sharp pitched steel roof, which way would the egg roll down?"

If you mean a '68GT Coupe vs. a GT/CS (which would also have to be a GT, and 302, 390 or 428; if you mean "exactly"), then the GT/CS would have more interest and value.

If you meant a '68 GT fastback, then it gets into apples and oranges. All things considered, one would have to be after a fastback or coupe, and/or into Shelby coupes.

It's a blue sky question, but I get it.

Paul N.

P.S. how does one fit a Nissan into a Ford (and explain it)???

Mosesatm
05/26/2005, 02:44 PM
Non-GT California Special optioned out like a GT vs '68 GT Coupe. Common sense would lead us to think that the GT/CS would be worth more but I think the GT would sell higher just because it is a GT.

The Nissan thing is a running joke, sort of like the Highland Green comments. My first post on this site was about taking a 6 cylinder Mustang and dropping a 265 net H.P. Nissan 3.5L V6 into it. The idea was not well received, except by Casey, who I then declared a genius.

Mustanger
05/26/2005, 03:55 PM
Maybe a fun thing to do would be to compare the prices of these 2 choices by using the NADA price guide:

http://www.nadaguides.com

Per NADA, a base CS can range from $7675 - $25,600 (it naturally increases with each option you add).
:D

Mustanglvr
05/26/2005, 04:28 PM
I figure it should all depend on the rarity of the car. Option for option, which did they make more of? Of course they would both have to be coupes. I think a GT GT/CS has the best of both worlds and should be considered worth more than a straight GT. But like I said it should be based on rarity. Just my 2 cents.
And Nissan? Don`t need no bloody Nissans :P Around here the Hmong people soup those up. I admit they`re cute but they remind me of little Hot Wheels cars, not the other way aound LOL. I`m thinking of selling my Acura to somebody that will want to soup it up. I have had a few offers. Moses, are you interested in a 1987 Acura Legend with a 2700 V6? It sure is zippy. ;D
Rhonda

Russ
05/26/2005, 05:14 PM
As most of you know, I have a Highland green GT hardtop and Highland green GT/CS, and both cars are very similiar, in fact, nearly identical! The GT has a 302 while the GT/CS has a 289. The cars are both Arizona cars, and both are restored. Since there were 4677 GT hardtops produced, my feeling is that the GT/CS is more desireable and rare, hense, more valuable.

I think value is what someone will pay for a car, and this has been an ongoing topic on this site for ages. I have read about "big blocks" vs. "small blocks" until I'm blue in the face, but really, it boils down to the preference of a buyer. My preference is to have a car with A/C, power steering and a 302......that is my GT. But as far as a great looking car, my GT/CS has it ALL OVER my GT!!

Just my thoughts,
Russ

davidathans
05/26/2005, 06:18 PM
I know this is a buyer preference topic question again, but just want to hear a few opinions....

How about a non-GT(originally) California Special with:

Note: When i say new i mean everything has about 5000 miles!
1. 400 Horsepower small block. 347cid, AFR185 aluminum heads, Lunati Cam, Aluminum edlebrock water pump and aluminum edlebrock performer RPM intake manifold. Holley 670 4 barrel vacuum secondaries fully tuned bigger jets.
Holley Fuel Pumps: Mechanical and Electronic by switch in the back with tank. Full MSD ignition system: MSD coil, wires, 6AL MSD Box, MSD Pro-billet distributor, timing module. Custom exhaust: Labree Motorsports double cross over x pipe, magnaflow mufflers, hooker super competition long tube headers.
1/4 mile time: 12.756 at 106.77 Fontana,
60 foot time(with slicks): 1.838 seconds
2. Chrome Rims Cobra R 17"x8"front 17"x9"rear also Aluminum 15x8"Racing Rims with hoosier 26"x9"-15 Slicks included
3. All upgraded disk brakes: Front: Baer Upgrade kit 13" Crossdrilled/slotted zinc washed rotors with red calipers. Rear: Large Disk Brakes from a 79 Lincoln Mark VII rear end
4. All new suspension: Moog front end suspension kit (upper and lower control arms, tie rods, bushings), New V6 mustang springs and Carrera 90-10 front shocks with RanchoRS9000 rear shocks, new leaf springs, Caltracs Traction Bars, Sub Frame connectors.
5. All new drivetrain:ford 9" 4.11 gear limited slip, A-1 racing C4 tranny with 26 spline input shaft with Continental 3500 stall converter, B&M Pro Shifter ratchet.
6. Black Paint Job with white stripes, new black vinyl top
7. Amplified stereo system: Pioneer head unit CD/Radio 4channel coustic amp for all mid/full range pioneer 150W each, Kenwood 600W max for 1 JL 12" W6 subwoofer, 1 Farad Capacitor.
8. Rare Swing away steering wheel column with Lecarra soft black aftermarket wheel.
9. Guages: Autometer Tach, oil pressure, water temp, volts
10. All new weather seals on all doors, new front windshield.
11. Marti Report with original sticker.
12. Has original Black plates
13. Interior: new dash panels, dash pad and cover, head liner, dome light, sun visor brackets, seats have wool covers, back seat is black vinyl

What is my car worth? There is a lot of money invested, do you think i deserve more than $25,000 for this car? Its in the gallery on the 3rd page under David AThans...thank you all for your input.

hookedtrout
05/26/2005, 07:23 PM
I know this is a buyer preference topic question again, but just want to hear a few opinions....




Nice looking car David. I couldn't even begin to tell you what the value of it is, not being the gear head or racing type I couldn't put a value on what you have invested in the engine and drive train. I like the white on black, looks nice. I did notice you are one of those, myself included, that had a rear quarter changed and they drilled the California Special emblem holes incorrect. Mine is on the Passenger side yours is on the drivers side. Your paint looks way to nice to worry about changing it now but if you ever repaint you might want to get it located correct. My paint is toast so mine will be corrected soon.

Hook

davidathans
05/26/2005, 07:53 PM
thanks for the remark. Ya i know the california on the driver side should be more to the left, when i redo all the body again i will make sure its perfect.

Mustanglvr
05/26/2005, 07:53 PM
David,of course its going to be worth more with all that extra stuff in it. I think what we are saying is whats the difference in price between a GT and a GT/CS totally stock having comparible options. The ones with the big blocks are going to be higher because there were so few stock produced. I feel that the GT/CS`s are more desirable because they are just not your typical Mustang. They only made them one year, which is a big plus, since they made GT`s and Shelby`s over several years. Someday the GT/CS`s especially with the big blocks will be the most expensive and most desireable of all the early Mustangs. I`m sure they will be giving the Shelby`s a good run for there money since there are more Shelby`s. Its only a matter of time. We might as well all relax and let time take its course. We know what we have and thats why were always discussing this subject. We drive what we love. My 2 cents more.
Rhonda

68gt390
05/26/2005, 09:02 PM
Since I have both a GT Coupe and a GT/CS both equiped pretty much the same except for tranny and both are 390 cars it's a no brainer - the GT/CS wins hands down for having a higher value. Of course that's just my opinion and we all know how those are!!!

Don ;D

Mosesatm
05/26/2005, 10:01 PM
Maybe a fun thing to do would be to compare the prices of these 2 choices by using the NADA price guide:

http://www.nadaguides.com

Per NADA, a base CS can range from $7675 - $25,600 (it naturally increases with each option you add).
:D



Checking NADA would be a good idea if their numbers were a little more realistic. They show a GT/CS with a 302 and no other options as $7,900, $14,300, $26,000. Not bad, but they also show a GT/CS 428CJ at $10,400, $18,850, $34,220.

Hey Jason, how many perfect 428CJ GT/CSs would you like for $34,200?

To be fair to them NADA and The Gold Book both show the GT/CS valued higher than the GT in all categories.
What I find interesting is that the Gold Book shows the HCS valued lower than the GT/CS. So much for rarity affecting the value in a positive way. Could it be that the HCS is so rare that very few people know they exist so there is a very limited market for them? Or could it be that the Gold Book is just wrong?

Mustanglvr
05/26/2005, 11:15 PM
Maybe its because the HCS was produced for 3 years in a row. Basically making the GT/CS more rare.
Rhonda

meadowsdk28
05/27/2005, 06:52 AM
Maybe its because the HCS was produced for 3 years in a row. Basically making the GT/CS more rare.
Rhonda

Yeah, but the 68 HCS and the 66, 67 HCS are apples and oranges. I'm wondering if the Gold book people even understand that? Do they realize the 68 HCS mirrored the GT/CS or if they think it is like the other years as a paint and badging option only? Seems to me the HCS and GT/CS should run the same if not the HCS a little higher due to extremely limited #'s comparitively. I also know (and High Country Bob or Paul, feel free here) that the HCS has consistently been of a lower book value over the years. :(

Mosesatm
05/27/2005, 07:04 AM
Here is another theory to ponder, and since it's going to upset some HCS owners I apologize in advance.

I first saw the GT/CS and HCS in a book and thought, "Wow, great looking cars, but what is that blob looking thing on the HCS scoop?"

I think the HCS shield, while it is very artistic up close, can be too much of a focal point when viewed from a distance, and that may just turn off a number of potential purchasers.

But if it was Highland Green and had a Nissan 3.5L in it.......!!

BTW, were any R-model '68 HCSs ever built?

Mustanger
05/27/2005, 07:10 AM
Maybe its because the HCS was produced for 3 years in a row. Basically making the GT/CS more rare.
Rhonda

Yeah, but the 68 HCS and the 66, 67 HCS are apples and oranges. I'm wondering if the Gold book people even understand that? Do they realize the 68 HCS mirrored the GT/CS or if they think it is like the other years as a paint and badging option only? Seems to me the HCS and GT/CS should run the same if not the HCS a little higher due to extremely limited #'s comparitively. I also know (and High Country Bob or Paul, feel free here) that the HCS has consistently been of a lower book value over the years. :(




I don't know exactly how some of these price guides are established, but a car's value is always determined by 3 things: 1) rarity, 2) condition, and 3) market demand.
You could have a concourse, "1 of 1," rare mustang (HCS for example), but if John Public isn't interested (or even aware), then the price/value won't be so high :( .
But if you have a car that might receive a lot of hype at the Barrett-Jackson Auction, then you could sell a non-origional '67 Shelby for $280k :o .

meadowsdk28
05/27/2005, 07:12 AM
What I find interesting is that the Gold Book shows the HCS valued lower than the GT/CS. So much for rarity affecting the value in a positive way. Could it be that the HCS is so rare that very few people know they exist so there is a very limited market for them?

I think that is EXACTLY what this GT vs GTCS issue is all about! I personally believe (and don't agree with) that in the scenario posted, the GT would sell for more on EBAY. Why? People are generally leary of what they don't know. You can post it as rare or exotic all day long and Mr. and Mrs. Joe America will shy away from it and go for the sure thing. The car they've known and loved for 40 years. They identify with the GT more. It's in the movies, on TV, in advertising, giveaways at the local Hardees, raffels for the local AAU girls softball team...everywhere! They might really like the looks of the GT/CS. It probably intrigues them. In the end, I believe it takes a special person to fork over the cash to take the chance on one of these _________(we would say rare, they might say obscure) pony's. I'll bet there are many people on this board that can contradict me in multiple examples, but I'm talking an overall consensus. It's the multitude that will eventually drive (or not drive) up these prices. Me, I don't care about price. I got mine! Got it cheap back in the day and don't ever plan on selling.
One last example. My neighbor always has good things to say about my car. He thinks it's cool. THEN, he always goes on about how he woud love to have a 65 GT convertible one of these days. He's not a big Ford guy, but he knows those 65's. Why? 40 years of exposure! He's never once said "Know where I could get one of those?"

68gt390
05/27/2005, 07:14 AM
Arlie;
As for an "R" code HCS, look in the gallery page 4 and you'll see one (HighCountryBob).


Don ;)

Mustanger
05/27/2005, 07:25 AM
Arlie;
As for an "R" code HCS, look in the gallery page 4 and you'll see one (HighCountryBob).


Don ;)


I have an older issue of Mustang Monthly where Bob's R code is featured. I remember that it said per Marti Report, there were 9 R code HCS's ... and there are currently 6 accounted for today. ;)

meadowsdk28
05/27/2005, 07:44 AM
David,of course its going to be worth more with all that extra stuff in it.
David, before I go any father, let me say I've seen your car in the gallery and admire it very much. Love your dyno specs and I'll bet they will get quicker if I know the kind of guy you are, being quite similar to the guy I was 20 years ago!!
Having said that...If you ever go to sell it, you will probably lose your a@@ on the money you've invested in it. In your cars case, I doubt that WORTH=sum of its parts. You could probably break even or maybe even profit a bit if you brought the car back to near original specs (oh, a few odds and ends like a good 4 bbl carb and aluminum intake won't hurt it) and sold those other parts separately. My guess is (based on experience) people would run away from your car so fast, you would need a Christmas tree and timing lights to check for a new 1/4 mile record! I imagine they would see your car as one that's had a tough service life, road hard and put away wet, and generally been abused.

DONT GET ME WRONG, I THINK YOU'VE GOT A GREAT SET-UP!! I ADMIRE YOUR CAR. PLEASE DON'T BE OFFENDED!!

Heck, if you sold the parts on Ebay, I might even be a substantial bidder. It's just that your typical (is there such thing) Classic Mustang buyer is going to fork over substantial cash or financial committment hoping to drive a classic, stand out some, and have an INVESTMENT that should appreciate over time, whether they would ever sell or not. The mass buyers will pay more for the pampered puppy that is fairly stock as opposed to the proven Bow-tie killer.

The ironic twist of fate is this and I've witnessed it first hand. A guy will shy away from a car equipped as yours is, buy a showroom stock type car and within 6 months have it equipped just like yours or maybe not even as well. He will probably spend more in the process of doing it. He didn't plan on it, but it happened none the less.

Go Figure!

p.s. Did I tell you I admired your car?

coloradoHCS
05/27/2005, 09:04 AM
I have thought about why all the value books usually list the 68 GTCS higher in value than the 68 HCS. Here is my opinion:

1. More exposure...more well know 4000+ vs 251

2. The California "mystic"...always worth something.

3. High country is not a clearly defined place. Maybe should have been a Colorado Special with , I agree a different shield design not carried over from 66 and 67.

4. I think the values are based on sales and with more GTCS sales with more higher optioned cars that leads to a skewing of the statistics.

Mark.

Mosesatm
05/27/2005, 09:45 AM
What a great idea. It would have been so easy to swap out the California script for a Colorado script. Probably could have used the same holes.

PNewitt
05/27/2005, 10:18 AM
I guess I'll chime in on this one.

I can appreciate the pride and honor of the HCS owners, and I think how NADA (or whomever) "values" of these cars can seem unfair to the casual observer.

These values are usually made from auction results, and some posted sales in newspapers, and car magazines. There (wild guess) are probably less than 150 '68 HCS cars out there. How many of those cars go to auction--to be counted by NADA? Less than 10?

There are two things to remember here: One, the GT package for '68 wasn't "all that" by comparison to '65'66. It was stripes, fog lights, slotted wheels w/GT caps, GT gas cap, and HD suspension, which meant stiffer springs (all with a 4bbl V8).

Two--these cars were driven by marketing for the 1968 model year. Absolutely no one planned, nor cared at the time that these cars were going to be around for this long--much less have such a strong following. I'm speaking in marketing (pushing iron off the showroom floor) terms. The HCS decal was designed by local Denver Ford dealers. It was a local promotion. You have to accept it for what is is, and for what it was at the time. I happen to think that it's very unique (but let's not argue that).

There are so many different and unique Mustangs out there to appreciate and enjoy. Some people like Lime green '70 coupes, and some like red on red '65 convertibles. Value is a VERY SUBJECTIVE matter with these cars. ONE car at action can skew values overnight.

If outside folks have opinions about this or that Mustang, it's up to them to be educated before making that judgement--and it's up to us to educate folks at car shows, and that is why I did the books.

It's easy to get all ruffled about $$ value and value judgements. We have a lot to look forward to--and to enjoy with what we have.

Paul N..

davidathans
05/27/2005, 11:48 AM
Thanks alot Meadowsdk28. I was not offended by what you said and i totally agree with you too that alot of buyers would shun away from my car because they might think it was abused. I do race the car, but i do it at the track and i meet all safety inspections. I truly have the car built to do this, everything has been replaced. The engine/tranny,rearend,suspension/brakes are all new and are all built for racing. I love this car and i truly do not want to sell it, Im just curious if people think that it would sell for $25000 or more based on the fact that it is one of the fastest california specials ever. My car seriously has more power than a GT350 shelby and maybe it could even beat a 428CJ if that motor was stock haha. Alot of people when they see me driving around would ask
"how much would you sell it for" I usually respond, "you couldnt afford what i would sell it for, $50000" I say this because anyone that buys a shelby buys it because its rare and fast and they generally love the looks and charisma. With my car, it is a very rare car and it is fully hooked up to be faster than a shelby gt350 so in my opinion i think it should sell for close to the price i see these shelbys selling on ebay for. It really is a buyer preference. I might be able to get 30K 40K or 50K depending on the presentation i make to the buyer, depending on if they are well financially off, and they are specifically looking for a rare California Special that is already fully muscled up with 400bhp and 340RWHP.

390cs68rcode
05/27/2005, 11:52 AM
I would like to find some concrete info on the Texas Bluebonnet specials. There was a MM article a few months back about one of these.

anyone?

Mosesatm
05/27/2005, 12:02 PM
Jason, have you gone to Tom Schmidt's Mustang Links and browsed through it? Somewhere in that huge list is a link to "Specials" and I think the web page the link takes you to mentions the blue bonnets. You might be able to Google "Special Mustangs" or Mustang Specials" or something similar to get to that page.

From what I understand very little is known about the cars. Very little.

Mustanger
05/27/2005, 12:34 PM
Jason, have you gone to Tom Schmidt's Mustang Links and browsed through it? Somewhere in that huge list is a link to "Specials" and I think the web page the link takes you to mentions the blue bonnets. You might be able to Google "Special Mustangs" or Mustang Specials" or something similar to get to that page.

From what I understand very little is known about the cars. Very little.


Try this link:

http://pages.prodigy.net/d.hughmanick/specials.html

You're right, not much info out there.

390cs68rcode
05/27/2005, 03:23 PM
thanks, I read all of that page. I wonder if anyone has ever put a collection together of all those "specials"?

meadowsdk28
05/29/2005, 05:07 AM
I might be able to get 30K 40K or 50K depending on the presentation i make to the buyer, depending on if they are well financially off, and they are specifically looking for a rare California Special that is already fully muscled up with 400bhp and 340RWHP.

Hey, my degrees in marketing. Just let me know if you ever sell and we'll create the next Eleanor!