Took my car to a local mechanic shop today to see if they could diagnose the rolling noise in the engine. One of the techs said that the noise is probably coming from a piston with collapsed skirts and what sounds like a rolling noise is actually the skirts contacting the cylinders as the piston moves up and down. That seems to make sense. It’s not a tapping noise like a wrist pin would make, and the noise seems to lessen as the revs increase.

Of course that conversation then turned into an estimate of $9,000 to rebuild a 302 block with aluminum heads, roller rockers, stroker kit, 4V carb and intake, and headers. That’s not exactly in my budget so I asked what it would cost to fix the one bad piston. $2,500 - $3,000!!!!!!!!

Looks like I’ll be fixing it myself. First a few questions, though.

If the tech is correct and one of the pistons has one or both of its skirts collapsed could I drop the pan, and find the faulty piston by measuring all the skirt/cylinder wall clearances?

Since the engine is good and tight, and otherwise does not need a rebuild, if I find the bad piston is it safe to replace only that piston and its rings? I know that goes against everything we’ve ever heard about engine repair, but from a realistic point of view can it safely be done?

The biggest concern I see with such a repair is in the weight of the new piston vs the old pistons so I’d need to pull another one to make sure they are similar. That turns into, “well if I’m pulling 2 of them I might as well do all of them.” And that eventually turns into a complete rebuild.

I guess the overriding question is - where is it safe to stop the repairs and still have a fairly reliable engine? If I don't do the work I'll need to know what to get bids on from other engine rebuild shops.

What is a decent price from a shop for a removal, short-block rebuild, re-assembly, and reinstall?

Thanks for any insights you can offer.

Arlie: I'm no expert, but I think I'd get a second opinion. If it's as you describe and your piston skirts have "collapsed", I would be afraid of loose metal scoring your cylinder walls. I would suggest you drain your oil and check for metal fragments by filtering. I would start by pulling your pan and inspecting the crank and rods. I would rotate the crank and let the pistons drop to their lowest positions and see if the piston skirts are cracked or gone. I've heard that you can replace a piston through the bottom of the engine, but I would be more inclined to pull the engine and break it down on an engine stand. I know that sounds like a lot of trouble but if you are thinking "overhaul", that's the best way to do it. You should consider rebuilding it yourself but if you're not into that, just removing and reinstalling would save $$$$. Just my intial thoughts on the subject. I really hope it's a simple problem to fix, but it doesn't sound good. I know others here may have some ideas for you too. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Steve,

I recently had the pan off to replace the oil pump (no problem with it, just a precaution) and I was pleasantly surprised at how clean the bottom of the pan was. I didn't filter the oil though.

Arlie, I just picked up a J code 68 coupe. Tim and I pulled the motor ourselves and I took it into the local Napa Machine Shop. I am having the entire engine rebuilt (long block) for $2,500.00, and that's with Keith Black pistons, balanced, Hardened valve seats, everything. I would get a second opinion for sure. Mike

Arlie,

First, my sympathy to you and your problem. I'm sure at some time, each of us have had that problem (or, unfortunately, will, in the future). I remember when I had an engine not start, because the block cracked at 217K miles, and there was sludge on the dipstick. It was a sick feeling....

So--I had to stay at a friend's house, and for a week, I pulled the motor myself, had to switch the intake, water pump, pulleys, etc. It was a mess, but I HAD to do it to get home, 500 miles away.

Steve makes sense. I'd get a second opinion. $9K sounds kinda high. There are crate motors for less than that. Is this an original motor? Original block? How many miles on this motor--original or rebuild?

A rolling sound (grinding type of rolling?) might be a crank bearing, or a seal that's going out. If it lessens with the increase in RPM, it sounds to me like something that likes oil to smooth out whatever is "wrong". A bad piston skirt would cause more noise, and a LOT more friction problems. Like Steve pointed out, the scoring of the cylinder would make sure you had to pull it all apart, and you (worst case) might lose the block altogether, if it's deep scoring.

One time, the motor refused to turn over, and I thought I'd blown it. I slept on it, and remembered that I had a (cheap rebuild) starter that had self-grenaded about a month before, and left shrapnel in the bellhousing. The next morning, I pulled the starter (a new Ford one), and there was this zig-zag piece of metal wedged between the starter gear and the flywheel gear. Could your flywheel be scratching something? If you'd pulled the pan, could the front pan seal be out of alignment, "scratching" something? You might think of stuff like this, beacuse it happens. Then we think--dang, I wished I'd thought of that before...

Mechanics (some, not all) like to talk you into a new motor. Rebuilds are mostly labor, and lots of cash. I'd get another opinion., with a scope, a good ear, and someone that is really experienced with our vintage of engines.

Sorry--this is armchair advice, but maybe it will trigger a better answer.

Wishing for the best outcome,

Paul N.

I have to agree on the "get a second opinion". We pulled my 302 out,took it to a shop and had it rebuilt for less than $2,000.00.

I'd get a second opinion also. I had mine rebuilt, with extras, for about $2500.00 . At $9000, i'd spend an extra $1K and get the new 500hp Boss 302 and put it in.
http://media.ford.com/newsroom/release_display.cfm?release=24698

You can change just the piston, if the cyl. walls are ok, but you'll need to pull the head and take it out the top. It's at best a short term fix and you'll be rebuilding the whole thing in a year or so anyway. If you decide to pull the engine yourself, which isn't that bad really, email me offline and I'll walk you through it.

Arlie, I'm sorry about your engine....but, if you are at all mechanical, and like to work on engines, you can save a bunch of money by fixing your engine yourself! I agree with everyone else, that $9000 to repair a 302 cu in engine is out of line. I recently rebuilt my J code engine and here is what I spent:

1) Machine work on the block...including line boring the mains, boring the cylinders, installation of new camshaft bearings, grinding the crank = $325
2) Rebuilding the heads....new valves, new springs, hardened valve seats in the exhaust valve seats, = $400 (the heads did not need to be resurfaced)
3) Purchase new, name brand parts for the engine.....including new pistons, cam, lifters, timing set, rings, rod and main bearings, oil pump, gasket set and freeze plugs = $220 from Northern Auto Parts (northernautoparts.com)

I had the machine work and the head work done by a local machine shop in Flagstaff. I assembled all the parts to complete the engine.

That's a total of $945 for everything you need for a rebuilt long block. Now all you need is time and a factory shop manual. I would encourage you to give it a try. It is very rewarding, and you CAN do it! Hope this helps,

Russ

Thanks for all the comments and advice.

The shop I took it to is considered one of the best in town. It's where people go who want engines David and Joe can appreciate. This shop is used to big invoices and big profits. I really wanted them to diagnose it more than actually fix it, anyway.

The more I thought about the piston skirt theory the more I found flaws with it, just as Paul did. It seems more likely to be a badly worn front main bearing; worn so badly by the accessories (Air, Water pump, PS, Alternator) that it is wobbling at low speeds but then smooths out at higher rpms. Plus the noise seems to be in the front of the engine.

Here's the new plan for today (no matter what's wrong with it)

331 stroker kit
Edelbrock Performance Package (Intake, Carb, Cam)
Rebuild and port the heads - I can port them if the mechanic wants too much
Remove the power steering and install the $150 converter thingy
AOD
Probably need some better exhaust manifolds or headers

Any thoughts on that plan?

Here's the new plan for today (no matter what's wrong with it)

331 stroker kit
Edelbrock Performance Package (Intake, Carb, Cam)
Rebuild and port the heads - I can port them if the mechanic wants too much
Remove the power steering and install the $150 converter thingy
AOD
Probably need some better exhaust manifolds or headers

Any thoughts on that plan?

I think that's a great idea. Although, I wasn't too pleased with my Edelbrock's performance. I went to a Demon. One word of caution with the AOD and headers. The crossmember I bought for the conversion didn't work. The headers wanted to dump right into the crossmember. There was no way I was going to hook up the exhaust to the headers using that crossmember. Had to fabricate one. The crossmember I bought was from Ron Morris Performance. Here's a couple of pics of the fabricated crossmember.

One other thing, Arlie. The engine I got was nowhere near $9K. I supplied the blower,carb, ignition, and accesories, but the rest of this engine cost me about $4500 with shipping. And that's with a couple of upgrades (forged pistons, roller cam, port-matched heads, high-flow water pump). And the builder has a very reputable shop. He started building NASCAR engines and got into the street engines a couple of years ago.

Arlie: Sounds like a winner to me. Some of us here have rebuilt their own engines, and I can say that it was a rewarding, educational experience and the most fun out of the whole restoration. I think you're on the right track and making a good decision. If you have a lot of miles on the engine, or a lot of little problems with it or you just want to make more horses, rebuilding it is the way to go. You might give some thought to buying aftermarket heads instead of rebuilding them. It was actually cheaper when I checked into it. You might also consider the hypo cast iron exhaust manifolds instead of headers just as a comparison. I have an Edelbrock performer intake and a 600 cfm Edelbrock carb with electric choke. I'm really pleased with that set-up. Let us know if you need any help or advice as you progress forward.

Lets all meet at Arlie's house and rebuid his engine!!!!!! He can feed us, take us to shows, house us, etc., all for the low price of $9,150.00.

Just kidding of course. This thread reminds me of how many smarts folks we have on this site.

Paul

Arlie,

I like your plan.

FYI- I just ordered a complete long block 347 roller cam with Edelbrock heads from Coast High Performance out of Torrance, CA for about $5K.

I previously went to my local speed shop and started spec'ing out an engine with the guy and next thing I knew we we up to almost $9K. Of course they were going to build me a monster fire breathing 500HP 347 ;-)

-Jeff

Arlie, I chose to have my engine rebuilt by the shop instead of doing it myself, only because I don't have the time. I've rebuilt engines before, and it IS rewarding. I had my wife help me and she loved it.
I was going to put headers on the 302 engine being built now, but then I had to get a drop bracket to lower the power steering piston 1 inch, as the headers hit. Then Tim reminded me about headers. All the headers I have used or seen in the past did one or two things. Cooked Starters, and/or burned Spark Plug boots off. Another problem you may have is the headers get so hot, after a while, they rust out. Headers in my experience, depending on the collector, always seem to have an exhaust leak. Mike

Arlie, I chose to have my engine rebuilt by the shop instead of doing it myself, only because I don't have the time. I've rebuilt engines before, and it IS rewarding. I had my wife help me and she loved it.
I was going to put headers on the 302 engine being built now, but then I had to get a drop bracket to lower the power steering piston 1 inch, as the headers hit. Then Tim reminded me about headers. All the headers I have used or seen in the past did one or two things. Cooked Starters, and/or burned Spark Plug boots off. Another problem you may have is the headers get so hot, after a while, they rust out. Headers in my experience, depending on the collector, always seem to have an exhaust leak. Mike

I've had good luck with my ceramic-coated Doug's headers. No leaks and no cooked starters on my convertible so far. I did buy a mini-starter and wrapped it in a blanket, though.

Arlie--

"IF" it's the front main bearing, as you may know....that would be a lot easier than pulling the whole motor. It involves removing the radiator, water pump, all brackets, the timing cover, and oil pan. Old, stock timing gears have plastic (nylon) on them, and they degrade over time. It might be time for a new, better, all metal timing chain. After 100K miles, they get sloppy, and the timing never gets right....

Besides, if you're going to do "something", you might as well begin with the front bearing, and if things look "real bad", then you've already got the front parts off, and then you can continue with pulling the whole motor out. I think that when you see the timing chain there, see if there's play in the lower (front) bearing, as well as on the cam. The lower (larger) sprocket will wobble noticeably, when the chain is off of it. If you DO get into the timing chain, make sure you know where the cam and crank are lined up, before you put things back together.

It depends on how many miles--and age of your motor, and if it's gonna hang together for a few more years, before you take the big plunge.

Heck, let's all converge over at Arlie's, have a "BBQ and motor-yankin' party"!

LOL!

Good Luck,

Paul N.

Ah, yes, tearing down the front of the motor again.

I just replaced the timing sprockets and chain, the fuel pump, oil pump, water pump, distributor, lifters, pushrods, transmission filter, all the hoses and belts, and cleaned and painted everything. Used a case of paper towels, a gallon of lacquer thinner, and a few cans of Ford blue.

The annoying thing is that it now runs great, it just makes that troublesome noise, which it made before I did all that work.

Oh well, at least this time I'll just spill antifreeze all over the garage floor instead of antifreeze, and oil, and transmission fluid, and I won't get nearly as greasy!!!! And why in the world did Ford place the radiator drain over the dang frame?

Arlie--

"IF" it's the front main bearing, as you may know....that would be a lot easier than pulling the whole motor. It involves removing the radiator, water pump, all brackets, the timing cover, and oil pan. Old, stock timing gears have plastic (nylon) on them, and they degrade over time. It might be time for a new, better, all metal timing chain. After 100K miles, they get sloppy, and the timing never gets right....

Besides, if you're going to do "something", you might as well begin with the front bearing, and if things look "real bad", then you've already got the front parts off, and then you can continue with pulling the whole motor out. I think that when you see the timing chain there, see if there's play in the lower (front) bearing, as well as on the cam. The lower (larger) sprocket will wobble noticeably, when the chain is off of it. If you DO get into the timing chain, make sure you know where the cam and crank are lined up, before you put things back together.

It depends on how many miles--and age of your motor, and if it's gonna hang together for a few more years, before you take the big plunge.

Heck, let's all converge over at Arlie's, have a "BBQ and motor-yankin' party"!

LOL!

Good Luck,

Paul N.

If you know a doctor, or someone with a stethescope (sp?), I'd remove the fan, and any other obstructions, and get a good listen here and there for where exactly that noise is coming from--while the engine is at low idle...

It just might work.

Paul.

" Old, stock timing gears have plastic (nylon) on them, and they degrade over time. It might be time for a new, better, all metal timing chain. After 100K miles, they get sloppy, and the timing never gets right....
Paul N.

Now that's a new one on me. I didn't know they used nylon or plastic on the timing gears. When I dismantled my engine, I didn't see any sign of plastic or nylon on the timing gears or the chain. They were solid metal castings. I'm curious, was that some sort of coating that Ford applied? That's an interesting tidbit I'd like to know more about.

Well, Steve, I can't remember 100%, but original cam sprockets for timing gear chain sets, from the factory are nylon (or a similar material). They did this to keep the engine noise down. (for example: Know how you can hear a Chevy hipo motor sounds like it has a 6-71--from two blocks away?? Well, it's the timing chain, or timing gears).

So, by now, 39 years later, you'd be hard pressed to find one in and engine on the road. I also think they were plastic, as a kind of "planned obsolesence" thing for cars then...so, in the fall of 1971, you'd go: "Well, that 1972 Mustang does look good to me, and that '68 302 of mine is kinda old and klunky...and it won't keep time."

Another note for Arlie. To solve that grinding noise...Did you check how the pulley bolted to the water pump is aligned? If you look closely, pulleys and belts can tweak themselves, and rub on each other and make noise, until they go faster.

(I can't believe I just said that...LOL!!). Oops, I did it again!

Your pulley might be grinding on the water pump housing. Look for scrape marks.

Do I win something if I guess right?

Paul N. :-P

Yep, checked that. Also removed all the belts to make sure no accessories were turning. There is no doubt that the noise is inside the motor, and I'm pretty sure it's towards the front. Crank, cam, or timing chain.

Is it possible for the timing chain or one of the sprockets to rub on the block or for the sprockets to be slightly out of alignment with each other? If they were out of alignment wouldn't the chain pull them in line?

Keep working on it Paul. That's the kind of outside-the-box thinking it's going to take to solve this thing!

You are 100% correct about the original '68 timing gears being coated in vinyl. They were actually quite rugged, though. I got about 120K out of the set on my old GT/CS before the vinyl wore down and the chain slipped a tooth.

Well, Steve, I can't remember 100%, but original cam sprockets for timing gear chain sets, from the factory are nylon (or a similar material). They did this to keep the engine noise down. (for example: Know how you can hear a Chevy hipo motor sounds like it has a 6-71--from two blocks away?? Well, it's the timing chain, or timing gears).

So, by now, 39 years later, you'd be hard pressed to find one in and engine on the road. I also think they were plastic, as a kind of "planned obsolesence" thing for cars then...so, in the fall of 1971, you'd go: "Well, that 1972 Mustang does look good to me, and that '68 302 of mine is kinda old and klunky...and it won't keep time."

Another note for Arlie. To solve that grinding noise...Did you check how the pulley bolted to the water pump is aligned? If you look closely, pulleys and belts can tweak themselves, and rub on each other and make noise, until they go faster.

(I can't believe I just said that...LOL!!). Oops, I did it again!

Your pulley might be grinding on the water pump housing. Look for scrape marks.

Do I win something if I guess right?

Paul N. :-P

Yes, you're right. The plastic-coated sprockets actually last over 100K. I lost a tooth on one once. I was extermely lucky, tried to start it (no start), and the chain broke when the car was in the garage, and not out on the road. That engine lasted 217K miles, then the block cracked.

OK. The timing chain setup "would let you know" right away if it was out of synch, because the timing would be really bad, and no matter where you set the dist., it would run rough, that is, if it would even start. If it skipped a tooth, it would run rough--like a bad Holley.

I would check the bearing on both the crank, and the cam. If you took off the pulleys and belts loosened, I think if you took hold of the dampner; see if it moves up and down, or side to side, for play in the bearing. You'd have to have room to do this--OR-- from the underside while up on the rack. This is just a guess.

Paul N.
p.s. while writing this, we just had a 4.3 earthquake. Ah! Life in California! it's a ride!!

Couple of things. First, the original cam gears that I've seen haven't been "coated" in vinyl, but rather have a steel center and the teeth are
all plastic. It looks like a plastic ring gear pressed on a steel hub. At least that's the way I remember it. Second, some aftermarket chain sets are thicker than the originals (especially the double roller ones) and you have to leave the oil slinger off or it might rub on the inside of the timing chain cover. Just something else to think of.

Steve

That's it--you're absolutely right, Steve! I haven't seen one of those since 1982!

One more suggestion for Arlie....in our 'quest" for his problem.

I can't help but think that something wasn't re-installed right since you worked on the front end of the motor, and/or the water pump bearing is bad, gone out, or was tweaked when the belts and pulley's were installed. Over-torquing the accessories belts can do this, especially if they are not aligned right to begin with.

Was this WP a rebuilt or new? Sometimes the rebuilt parts can have "less than quality" bearings, etc. in them. I've heard screaming water pumps that look just fine, and are not broken (that drip through the bottom hole). There is this water pump bearing lubricant you can get at an auto parts store that may help, too. You dump it into the radiator water/coolant.

The Power Steering Pump can howl too. So can the alternator. Part of that can be from the mis-aligned belts, and pulleys. The off-angle puts stress on the bearings of all of the above. Then they make noise. A faster speed can reduce the noise, but it only gets worse.

Perhaps pull off one belt at a time, re-start and listen (just don't lose an ear or an eye from the spinning fan blades). By process of elimination, you just might find out what it is. It might not be the front bearing in the motor at all.

I've been so diligent about this thread, because a lot of other owners have had the same mysterious problems.

Paul.

Tried that too. It made the noise before I worked on it and I recently removed all the belts and ran the engine to make sure an accessory was not the issue.

Since the noise is louder now it makes me think that the new, tighter timing chain is directly or indirectly the culprit. It must be doing more of something that the old chain also did, but to a lesser degree.

OK....

You know what. It just might be the lower sprocket. If you over torque the bolt to the crank, it will make the lower sprocket scrape onto the face of the block. --OR--could it be put on backwards--facing onto the block by mistake?

And--if you have a big, double roller timing chain, it might be too wide, and be scraping on the block, too. Not a lot of clearance in there.

Can you find a way to listen ONLY to the timing cover, with some sort of listening device--and isolate it?

I'm really curious now what it could be.

Paul.

Took the car to a few mechanics today. One said, "Someone took out your 289 and installed a diesel." That is exactly what it sounds like.

2 guys said they are pretty sure it's the torque converter and another one voted for a piston skirt problem.

A bad torque converter would explain the sluggish take-off and it would explain why the sound doesn't speed up in synch with engine RPMs.

maybe it was the fan blade hitting the group 27 battery.













:tongue: :wink:

You know, Arlie, I am real sorry that this is happening to you.

As a side note, we've all experienced this--when you're (kinda) at a mechanic's "mercy" for an educated answer, and you get a smarta$$ response (as I'm sure it's worse towards women GT/CS owners).

This happens when a person has a high-profile car, and it has a problem.
So--just on your story, you don't need that kind of "advice". Dang. About eight of us wish we were there, and we'd have that puppy out of there in a flash, and apart faster than a NASCAR pit crew!

I thought you said it was "in the front". Hmmm....with everything making it's own noise, it's hard to know. What about actually going to either a Mustang Shop with mechanics, or biting the $$ bullet, and going to a real Ford Dealer to at least get an opinion?

Is there a local Mustang Club there in TX that knows of an "expert" mechanic about '68's? Who can we call for you? Let's get this fixed ASAP.

Hang in there--

Paul N.

I assume 39cs68rcode was kidding.

I'd look at pulling the transmission and running the engine while still in the car to see if it goes away without the trans. I doubt it's the motor. But I'd pull the timing chain cover first and check under there.

Scott

I assume 39cs68rcode was kidding.

I'd look at pulling the transmission and running the engine while still in the car to see if it goes away without the trans. I doubt it's the motor. But I'd pull the timing chain cover first and check under there.

Scott

I wouldn't run the engine without the rear supported. I'm not even sure how you'd get it started without the tranny in to bolt the starter to.

Steve

Maybe that was a bad idea. How about put it on a stand.

I have pulled my tranny and run my engine. It might depend on the type or year or your transmission. I have a C4 and had to unbolt and leave the bellhousing on so that the starter could be used.

I had a similar situation trying to diagnose a rattle. I was sure it was the flexplate, turned out to be something else.

Good luck Arlie.

david

Still looking at options. As usual, price will probably be the deciding factor.

Anyone used either of these companies or have any thoughts on going the internet route for an engine and transmission?

Looks like a C4, torque converter, and flex-plate from TCI will run around $1,400. Bolt that up to a remanufactured long block, install an intake and carb and I'm back in business, and with all new stuff, won't even get greasy!

http://www.rebuilt-auto-engines.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/buy_engine.html?p_vid=18008&sid=1AlF2z1jsABd82T-14107510915.ab

http://www.larrysperformance.com/data/assemengines.html

http://www.tciauto.com/Products/Ford/ford_c4_c6.asp

Sorry Scott, my bad. I wasn't thinking outside the box. If you took the bellhousing off the tranny and mounted it back on the engine, you could start it and a jack stand on the bottom of the bellhousing would probably support the rear of the engine temporarily. Hope I didn't step on your toes. :embarass:

Steve

Arlie, check out

http://www.heartlandenginebuilders.com/

This is who I purchased my 393 stroker from via the internet. Feel free to PM me and I can give you more details about them and purchasing from a non local engine builder.

David

Arlie:

Keep in mind if you have ANY problems with a mail order/internet rebuild then you will have to ship the motor back for them to fix (I know from experience). Get it done locally.

Thanks for the kind words Paul.

It's actually good that this happened because it's forced me to go out and look for a mechanic. Going to talk to a few more this weekend. Hopefully I can find one in my price range.

I think one reason I'm seeing such high prices is because the mechanics see a GT/CS and the prices automatically double. They assume our cars must be extremely valuable and that we must be loaded.

You know, Arlie, I am real sorry that this is happening to you.

Hang in there--

Paul N.

Well, you know I am not a mechanic....but,

Did the stethoscope probing help narrow down where the noise is coming from? Does the engine run smooth except for the noise? Does the noise change when engaging the trans (putting it under load)? Casey

Casey, I've been out of town all week, again, and haven't done anything else to it. This weekend I'm going to put it on jack stands and run it. That way I should at least be able to tell if the noise is coming from the front or rear of the engine.

I was also hoping to take it to a few more mechanics on Saturday but it's going to be 75 here so golf may just win out over car repairs!

Put it up on stands and ran it. I swear the sound is coming out of both the front and the rear of the engine.

Dropped the pan and poked, prodded, & jiggled everything. Everything looks and feels good. All the skirts are present, the thrust bearing looks fine (yes ladies there really is such a thing, it's not just a pick-up line), the cylinders are not scored, the timing chain is not hitting anything.

Buttoned it back up no closer to a solution than when I started. When I removed the starter I found the date code so the evening wasn't a complete waste time. It's a late '65 block.

My next task is to take it to a transmission shop to see if the torque converter is even a possibility.

Hey, I know what I should do. Maybe I should take the pan off again and run the engine so I can actually see the parts moving. That should make it easy to tell where the noise is coming from!!!!

Could a bad harmonic balancer create a weird rolling/knocking diesel-type noise?

For what it's worth, there are folks out there with a '65 or '66 concours project that would pay dearly for that ('65 date coded) 289 block. I was told this many years ago, because the 302 blocks have flooded the rebuild market. It's even more difficult to find a 260.

If it isn't the original block, you should just get a crate engine, and/or a stroker, and a perf C-4, and be done with it.

All things considered, life is too short to not have fun with your CS, and the looks of the car tend to "demand" it's performance out on the road.

If you can figure out how to do this economically, I say go for it. Yank the whole works out of there, and get new. It would help resale value, too (not that you'd want to sell it).

Just my two bits at this juncture of the problem. Still---I'll be curious what the trans shop tells you. Keep up posted.

Paul N.

Arlie, Just a thought I had for you from my experience. When I first started up my engine after the rebuild, I had a noisy metal clang at idle that would go away with acceleration and increased RPM's. I could not locate the problem at all, so I decided to pull the engine and partially dismantle it. I disconnected the transmission and found the problem. I had failed to properly torque the bolts on the flex plate and it worked lose and was hitting the studs on the torque converter. It ruined the flex plate and torque converter. I replaced those and properly torqued the flex plate nuts and that cured the problem. I just thought I'd throw that out there for your consideration. Hope you find that problem and get it solved soon!!

Sorry, Casey, I never did completely answer your question.

The engine runs great. It just sounds like an F250 diesel at idle.

The noise stays fairly constant whether it's in drive, park, or neutral and from what I've read on the internet that should rule out most possible torque converter problems.

The noise either goes away as the engine RPMs increase or I just can’t hear it over the fan.

And since I'm too stubborn to give up I'm not going to buy a long-block until I figure out what is making that blasted noise!!!!!!!! That means Sunday (Saturday is golf) will be spent removing and re-installing the timing chain and gears, and testing everything in that part of the engine. With the timing chain removed I should be able to check for play in the front main bearing, and the thrust bearing.

To answer the question most of you are thinking but are to polite to ask; Yes, the smart way to do this would be to pull the engine and put it on a stand, but being the eternal optimist I keep thinking there is no reason to go to all that work because the next thing I do will fix it and all will be right with the world again!

If there is nothing wrong in the timing chain area I’ll probably install a numeric oil pressure gauge to see what kind of pressure the engine is generating. The standard Mustang gauge in the dash shows oil pressure at idle just below the middle of the bar, which seems to me to be normal, meaning the bearings should be fine.

If it still rumbles after all that I will admit defeat and buy another engine:sad: :mad: :confused: :embarass: :undecided ……or maybe I could borrow an engine stand:Ponder: …………...


Well, you know I am not a mechanic....but,

Did the stethoscope probing help narrow down where the noise is coming from? Does the engine run smooth except for the noise? Does the noise change when engaging the trans (putting it under load)? Casey

One last thought, before you go into "surgery".....

What about the exhaust? A exhaust manifold leak--or h-pipe, or just a bad muffler might be making that diesel sound; and it would go away with a higher idle, too. The pressure from one exhaust port on the head could make that sound.

Maybe do something like stick a potato (from Idaho, of course) up your tailpipe, (when it's turned off), and then start it and see if the sound changes. It might go from "de-de-die-sel"...to "FFFFTTT..uuuuFFFTTT".

Remember to point your rear end away from anything living, organic or could sustain potential damage, or bodily injury from a jettisoned potato while doing this.

(I can't believe I just said all that..)

So- just check out your pipes before you do "exploratorary surgery".

Paul N.

Careful Paul! Abuse of a potato is a felony in this state!:grin:

Arlie, a few more ideas that probably aren't the problem but something to check just for laughs and giggles. Take the inspection plate off the front of the bellhousing and rotate the engine slowly with a remote starter (with the coil wire disconnected) and check to make sure the welds that hold the ring gear to the flex plate haven't broken.
Check the valve at the end of the right exhaust manifold to make sure it moves freely, the spring on the outside isn't broken and it isn't leaking.
Check your rocker arms to make sure they are adjusted correctly and the studs aren't pulling out of the heads. While you're there, check the lengths of the pushrods to make sure they are all the same and not bent.
If I think of anything else, I'll add it later. Without being there and seeing what's going on or hearing it it's hard to pinpoint, but we'll get there.

Steve

Steve and Paul,

Great advice. I never thought of an exhaust problem. All that back-pressure could make for terrible noises.

Found a new clue today. As I pulled the car out of the garage to run and errand I heard a rattle and figured the license plate was loose. It wasn't, but one of the transmission cooling lines was hitting the engine oil pan.....in perfect time with the diesel noise!!!!!!!

Seems strange that the cooling line would move that much, unless the torque converter has a wobble in it. Looks like the torque converter is back in the race. I'll check your broken-weld theory, Steve.

Took the car to Vintage Upgrades and Performance, a local company that upgrades and finishes-out Superformance Cobras.

They are going to rebuild the engine and the transmission, including the flexplate, and torque converter. They are also going to weld up the shock tower grease holes and solenoid screw holes, and detail the engine compartment.

Will probably have them also install a 4V setup and remove the power steering. I bought one of those power to manual converter things. Then it's time for a looooong road trip.

Then it's time for a looooong road trip.


The weather up here is starting to get nice. It was in the low 60's and sunny today.
:wink:
Steve

The weather up here is starting to get nice. It was in the low 60's and sunny today.
:wink:
Steve


I'm sort of considering the NW....sort of. Can't get much longer of a road trip and still be in the States; 2200 miles, 35 hours of driving, and around $350 worth of gas EACH WAY. Definitely need to get my door speakers and rear shelf speakers installed before then.

Make sure you swing by here. Olivia would love to ride in your GT/CS.

Arlie--

A couple of things: First, when they yank your old 289/C-4 out of there, I think you "owe us" (well, you don't really owe us, but we just gotta know) what happened?????? We've been playing "motor detective" for weeks now, and I just gotta know what the culprit was...

Second...does this place get to keep your old block, or do you toss it into a pickup and go home with it? The 289 block has some value--that is, if the innards' metal isn't all scratched up beyond .030", etc.

And third...(OK, I lied, there's three things)....why go with no power steering? What is that? Is it a "no room" issue? If you ever drove a '62 Falcon wagon like I learned to drive in, you'd want P/S.

Sounds like a plan....cool!

Paul.

Paul
I am hoping they will discover the problem when they tear down the engine. When they do I'll certainly post the results here.

They are going to rebuild the existing engine if it can be rebuilt. It seems to be a good, tight engine so I'm hoping for just a re-hone and rings.
Talk about engines with value - CJ Pony Parts' latest catalog shows the core charge on a 65-68 200ci I6 at $1,000 while a 289 is $175. An engine-rebuild website shows a 200 core at $350 and a 289 core at $450. Something is goofy somewhere.

I prefer manual steering, especially with that big steering wheel. I'll keep all the parts so when I'm old and feeble I can always get the power steering re-installed.


Arlie--

A couple of things: First, when they yank your old 289/C-4 out of there, I think you "owe us" (well, you don't really owe us, but we just gotta know) what happened?????? We've been playing "motor detective" for weeks now, and I just gotta know what the culprit was...

Second...does this place get to keep your old block, or do you toss it into a pickup and go home with it? The 289 block has some value--that is, if the innards' metal isn't all scratched up beyond .030", etc.

And third...(OK, I lied, there's three things)....why go with no power steering? What is that? Is it a "no room" issue? If you ever drove a '62 Falcon wagon like I learned to drive in, you'd want P/S.

Sounds like a plan....cool!

Paul.

Found out that the engine had never been rebuilt but a couple rod bearings had been replaced at some point.

The noise came from any or all of the following.
- Cam bearing were badly worn
- One piston had a cracked skirt
- The main bearings, especially the front, were badly worn
- Rod bearings were badly worn, except the 2 that were replaced.

Since it had never been rebuilt they were able to bore it .030 without any trouble. They also rebuilt the transmission and installed a new flex plate and torque converter.

They are also going to install an external transmission cooler, a 4V setup, and a pair of original GT exhaust tips I won on eBay.

Should have it back the week of the 16th.:icon_ecst

Then it'll be road-trip time!!!:icon_ecst :cool: :icon_heyb

The noise came from any or all of the following.
- Cam bearing were badly worn
- One piston had a cracked skirt
- The main bearings, especially the front, were badly worn
- Rod bearings were badly worn, except the 2 that were replaced.


Well, the good news is that we won't have to abuse an Idaho Potato!!! Steve will be happy 'bout that....LOL!

Gosh--all of that was bad/wrong with your engine? And it still ran? What a testimony to great Ford engineering--40 years later.

Maybe you told us--what was the total mileage on this engine? I once cracked a block at 417K miles--and it still wanted to start!! But, sludge on the dipstick said "dead". Ugh. :-(

Sounds great! Good luck with the rebuild, and I appreciate you, Arlie, keeping up updated on the problem--and solution. It made for some great reading!

Paul N.

Maybe you told us--what was the total mileage on this engine?
Paul N.

Don't know how many miles it had on it. It is a '66 engine.

My guess it that it had been pulled out of a car a long time ago and was sitting around in a shop for years. When the owner of the CS needed to replace its engine they probably took the '66 engine, threw in a couple rod bearings (not sure why) and slapped it back together. They must have installed new rings, too, otherwise it should have been burning oil.

Update on the engine rebuild:

Got the car back and it runs great. I kind of miss the diesel noise, though. It seems too quiet now.

A word of advice to anyone looking to rebuild an engine - make sure the shop replaces the rocker studs in the heads. The day I was going to pick up the car Mike #1 (there are 3 Mikes in the shop) was test driving it and a stud broke. They tore it all down again and then replaced all the studs. Apparently 2 or 3 others were ready to fail from corrosion.

I'm pretty happy with these guys. There is a little bit of a BS factor to deal with but they did the job they said they would do for the price they quoted.

For $3,900 they:

- Rebuilt the engine (bearings, .030 bore, pistons & rods, rings, cam & bearings, oil pump, timing assembly, harmonic balancer, heads)

- Rebuilt the transmission with a mild shift kit, new flex plate, and torque converter

- Removed the power steering and installed the converter

- Installed some GT exhaust tips I won on eBay

- Installed new transmission cooling lines

- New external transmission cooler

- Detailed the engine compartment, including moving the AC drier to the proper place

- Fixed the AC

- Rewired the fog lights (that circuit was used for the AC)

- New air cleaner assembly

- New valve covers

- New 4V intake and carb

As soon as I get a bent wheel replaced and the dash put back together (see other thread) it'll be time to drive!!!!!!!!!

Congratulations, Arlie!! I know you'll enjoy your freshened-up engine & tranny. Now when is that road trip?

Arlie,
I have had experience with piston skirt to cylinder knock. Becomes more pronounced as the engine gets warmer. Most prevalent in a “neutral” load on the engine. You can duplicate it at a stop by slightly revving the engine and then letting it slow down. It will be most noticeable when the engine changes from load to unload. So when you rev it and release it will make a rolling knocking for just a second or so until it is loaded by compression. Typically this is a broken skirt on one piston, or all of the pistons starting to slap the cylinder walls. All in all, the entire engine should be looked at.

The 331 sounds like a great plan. Everyone has steered you correct on cost. Although you never said the remove and replace was included in the $9k price. That would make it closer, but it still sounds very high.

The edlebrock carb is fine and a good carb for most all but very high performance applications. JBA makes a great shorty header for your car if you don’t want the performance of long tubes. They are great for most mild builds like your 331. Also, great ground clearance. I have a set on my GT/CS. Very thick flanges and no leaks. No cooked starters, no droping of PS brakets, and better performance.

Rob

Taking it back to the shop Friday. It smokes at startup and at idle. Valve guides or seals?

Arlie,
Give the new engine a chance. Did they suggest how to break in the engine? To seat the piston rings? You need to drive it under light acceleration and l light de-acceleration. Move the rings back and forth on the pistons and in the bores. Most new motors can be a little smokey before they break in. Chrome moly rings can be very hard to break in. sometimes they can take as much as 1,000 miles to seat the rings. Sounds like the shop you went to went the extra mile for you. Drive it for a week or two under city type driving. Accelerate, de-accelerate. No constant speeds for long periods of time. Even shift it into second coming down a hill and such. It may just need to be broke in.

Rob

It certainly could be that the rings haven't seated yet but to me it seemed strange that the engine smokes only at start-up and idle. I'd expect to see a serious smoke cloud at high RPMs if the rings hadn't seated.

Regardless of the cause the shop has offered to change out the valve seals to some super-duper brand. When I get the car back I'll then drive it around the beltway a few dozen times. There are certainly worse ways to try to solve a problem than being forced to drive a GT/CS!!!

Hopefully either the new seals or driving the car will stop the problem.

I'd sure like to have it fixed before June when I hope to put around 5000 miles on it.

Oh, BTW, there are no hills in Houston. Our version of a hill is an on-ramp!!!:grin:

Oh, BTW, there are no hills in Houston. Our version of a hill is an on-ramp!!!:grin:


I was in Arlington, Tx. on business one time (in between Dallas and Fort Worth), sitting in the hotel lobby BSing with a local and the subject of hills came up. He started telling me about Texas hills and I was looking around and didn't see any. He was pointing at one and I just didn't see a hill anywhere and then he said "See, that car just drove over it". It was a freeway overpass! Everything is NOT bigger in Texas! :grin:

Steve

The shop received another shipment of Cobras. I tried to talk Mike into giving me one as a loaner while he worked on my car. He just laughed at me!!!

Happy dance, happy dance, happy dance.:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

Happy dance, happy dance, happy dance.:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:


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