I'm not particularly interested in doing this, but I thought I'd throw the question out here anyway....

Should I include GT/CS "clones" in the back of the Registry? These would have to be proven as "coupes only", and/or have a Dearborn or New Jersey VIN code (as well as it being a fastback or convertible).

Would this serve as a notice to future buyers? (buyer beware?).

Your thoughts?

thanks, Paul.

IMHO - I feel that your time should be devoted to "real" GTCS and information about them. Any buyer who is interested in buying an older Ford (after 1967) most likely will have heard about the Marti report; should be able to verify a car that they are buying and its correctness. I would add that clones are popping up and to be should to do your homework before buying. I would not start adding cars to your book; I can just hear it now in an eBay “1968 California Special featured in Paul Newitt’s new book – for sale”.

Just my 2 cents worth. Doug

I may be a bit harsh, but I say absolutely NO. If a future buyer purchases a GT/CS without proof of authentication, whether it by original paper work or Marti report, the fault is his/hers. The price of the standard Marti reports are cheap, and you can gets results to verify car within hours. Future buyers can also ask questions here...

...As difficult as it is to find & document all the real CSs, why in the heck would you even consider registering clones? Do instead a detailed chapter on "buyer beware" spotting etc..., but otherwise stick to your original intent. As I often encounter owners and cars that are not in the registries and have not even heard of you - it would seem your efforts would be better spent being as "complete" as possible for the best benefit the owners here who are supporting you.

Clones will continue to be produced and registry or not, the Marti will always be the best defense! But Paul, if you keep adding all the things you've said over the past 3 years, you'll only drive the cost of the book up, incur further delays, only to wind up with another coffee table book that skims surfaces as opposed to any real dedication.
IMO

No, No, No, and again, NO. It seems to me that the book should address the subject for which it is titled. You cannot address all the woes of the world in what is really a single subject publication (California Specials/HCS). There are bogus Mustangs in nearly every type manufactured. Let's remain pure & simple, and stick with the subject at hand. My 2cents worth.
Neil

I say leave the clones out, except maybe as a notation that they exist. As an example, with Sunbeam Tigers, your car has to be inspected by 3 certified inspectors to verify it's a real Tiger before it gets "blessed", which eliminates not just clones but cars that have been rebodied with actual Tiger VIN's. Keep it real!

Steve

I`d say, mention how to look out for clones and with the owners permission, list the ones already known to be clones. Especially, the ones the owners insist are genuine.

I agree with Doug, John P, Tim, Neil, and Steve!

IMO Clones have there place, but its not in the California Special/HCS Recognition Book.

John

With all due respect to the young man that wanted info last week regarding how to make a clone because "He couldn't afford the real thing".

We all could have gone out and purchased a 1968 Mustang and attempted to make it a California Special but we didn't. We own a true piece of American Automotive History lets not change the rules in the middle of the game.

This is one of the reasons why we have Kevin Marti, Bob Teets and you Paul Newitt to keep the game "Honest and True" for all of us.

Duker

I have to agree with everyone here.

Buyer Beware chapter or section would be good but I would not include clones in the registry.

There are probably more clones out there than you could ever account for and at what point do you draw the line that's it's a clone. Full replica? Tribute with just scoops and a decklid? ... etc .. I think you get the point.

We try so hard to get the real story out there let's keep it real.

Not trying to be harsh just my opinion on the question that was raised.

Do Shelby clones get into that registry?

I agree with the above comments. There's no place for clones to be honored along side real CS's. Letting readers know the difference would be appropriate IMHO.

How is that book coming along Paul?

I have to agree with everyone here.

Buyer Beware chapter or section would be good but I would not include clones in the registry.

There are probably more clones out there than you could ever account for and at what point do you draw the line that's it's a clone. Full replica? Tribute with just scoops and a decklid? ... etc .. I think you get the point.

We try so hard to get the real story out there let's keep it real.

Not trying to be harsh just my opinion on the question that was raised.

Do Shelby clones get into that registry?

Hey, right on. NO Clones for me either and as spoken, no Shelby clones in my SAAC books either, right?? Bob Teets here.

That pretty much sums it up....wow. I appreciate your direct and passionate responses. Thanks for your input. I already do have several returned surveys from many years ago that show that they are obvious clones.

Like I said, I wasn't particularly interested in doing this, I was offering the idea to you. Not that this would have taken any more time and effort, but there was an inkling of "should I" there. Now, it's decided, and it won't happen.

Paul.

P.S. Tim, I don't have any of your GT/CSs registered. I have no record of them in the registry (except for one that was on EBAY the Bob Teets let me know about). Can you send in that info ASAP?

The consensus seems to be........

Neil Hoppe

The consensus seems to be........

Neil Hoppe

....um....that it's a "no go".

(you posted at the same time as I did)

Paul.

Even though I won't be including any clones in the registry, I'll be keeping an unpublished file on the side with VINs of these cars, that I've either seen, or were sent in to me.

If anyone out there knows of a clone, just mail me the information, the VIN & door tag info. I'll just keep that on hand, just in case a question comes up regarding any of these cars.

Of course, if the particular situation warrants, I'll have to confirm or deny it through a Marti Report to be sure that the information I receive, or have, is accurate.

Paul.

That pretty much sums it up....wow.

P.S. Tim, I don't have any of your GT/CSs registered. I have no record of them in the registry (except for one that was on EBAY the Bob Teets let me know about). Can you send in that info ASAP?

...Very well, I'll make color copies and get them in the mail. In the meantime; the four others are posted in the appropriate section of this site.

Let me add the opinion here that I hope with all the genuine information you're sitting on and w/ so much time and diversion gone by, that I would indeed commit to five books (one to go with each car) if (and only if) it's pure and not cluttered w/ clones, hiding horsepower under stock appearing engines and all the other "fluff" that seems to be stalling progress. Many folks here have completed total restorations, planned and executed major events and accomplished large endeavors without so much noise and needless query well inside the time (three years I've been here) we've been hearing about & waiting for "the book". I'm not trying to simplify your efforts Paul, but I do think it's time that you did.

HELL no. :icon_no:

Chiming in late as usual.

I agree with everything said, too.

Please do not honor the clone or tribute cars with their own chapter.

There was only 4,118 originals, and they were all manufactured in San Jose, California by Ford employees in 1968.

Proceed as planned with standard registry wordage stating that "There are many replica cars being advertised as the real thing." "The registry can help protect potential buyers by inquiring about the authenticity of 'for sale' GT/CS cars". blah blah.

In my opinion, honoring clones, will be giving them a place in GT/CS history.

IMHO -..... I would not start adding cars to your book; I can just hear it now in an eBay “1968 California Special featured in Paul Newitt’s new book – for sale”. Doug

Excellent point. Well taken.

Paul.

HELL no. :icon_no:

I hate it when you mince words, Donna...what do you mean? Are you unsure??

:-P

With all that has been said & done, when does 'the book' go to the publisher?

Neil Hoppe

I kinda wonder if I should have even brought this subject up. Perhaps I've been "too democratic" with this book's process. In any case, the point is well taken, and it's crystal clear where everyone stands.

I think that with a vehicle of this age, that identifying the pedigree is very important. I agree with Bob Teets, regarding the SAAC Registry. The book will focus on how to identify a true GT/CS, and to confirm it's authenticity with a Marti Report. The Marti Report will open the door for the restoration chapter, showing more details and parts that I held back from previously, for reasons of not wanting people out there building fakes.

Despite my focus on a narrower path of true original, I want to say that there are a few folks here that have very nice GT/CS clones; one who didn't know it was a clone for many years (developing an attachment to it like a member of the family). I, we, have to be careful to not judge owners of clones too harshly., since they have as much enthusiasm as owners of the original cars. I know that other marques, such as the orig. Cobra owners vs. the Replica Cobra (kit cars), there can be some animosity.

That is not to say that I'm going to be listing the clones. Rest assured, it's not going happen. But, I hope that we at least here, can share the enthusiasm together with orig. owners, clone owners, and folks that don't even own one (and may be looking). I guess I'm trying to say that I want to avoid elitism, on a personal level. That's all.

To answer Tim's comments. The book idea was in limbo for a long time, because you can't measure doing such a huge project, with a lot of $$ on only "three people" on the internet that say "go for it' (would you go for a variable mortgage rate, just because three people said "go for it" on the internet???)..LOL...
I've also taken two trips to Los Angeles as research trips. These things take time. I also have had to go through the Ford licensing process, which take time, too. What drove this to now, was waiting for the info on the 2008 GT/CSs. I wish to make this an inclusive book for all the 40 years.

So--here's the deal. The mailer has taken longer than I wanted, because there is a lot to explain, and details & questions about parts, etc....

The mailer will be done this week--and to the printer by the end of the week. I even had custom rubber stamps made for this mailing.

The mailer will present a deposit for the book, and a projected completion date on the 40th anniversary of the "opening night event" at the Century Hyatt --which will be Feb. 15th (2008).

That's all I'll say for now. You'll have to just get the mailer (and I'm sorry for those who wore out their bunny slippers that keep going out to the mailbox looking for that #($*@!!*% mailer!!) LOL!!

Paul N.

All good things come in time.
Please do not rush your book project Paul. It is going to be worth the wait.

All good things come in time.
Please do not rush your book project Paul. It is going to be worth the wait.

AMEN, Paul. Do what you have to do with the time that it will take to make the NEW book as comprehensive, complete and informative as you can "build" it. I say that "patience is a virtue" and I'm feel certain that such a book will blow our doors off. Thank you! Bob Teets here.

...
Despite my focus on a narrower path of true original, I want to say that there are a few folks here that have very nice GT/CS clones; one who didn't know it was a clone for many years (developing an attachment to it like a member of the family). I, we, have to be careful to not judge owners of clones too harshly., since they have as much enthusiasm as owners of the original cars. I know that other marques, such as the orig. Cobra owners vs. the Replica Cobra (kit cars), there can be some animosity.

That is not to say that I'm going to be listing the clones. Rest assured, it's not going happen. But, I hope that we at least here, can share the enthusiasm together with orig. owners, clone owners, and folks that don't even own one (and may be looking). I guess I'm trying to say that I want to avoid elitism, on a personal level. That's all...

Paul N.


Just for the record. I don't think anyone was knocking or trying to put down clone owners.

The question was should clones be included in the registry and the feeling (very strongly) that they should not be in the registry.

This is not a knock on clone owners at all.

If I had a GT/CS clone I wouldn't expect it to be in the registry. And as I mentioned about the Shelby registry, if I had a Shelby clone I wouldn't expect it to be in that registry.

I know for myself (and I believe everyone else that posted) this was not an attack on the clone owners as 2nd class citizens. My apologies to any clone owner or potential owner that took it that way.

I know a couple near me that has built somewhat of a CS clone/tribute car and they used to own a real CS in the past.

I respect the clones as long as they don't try to sell it as the real thing.
Which gets us back to the point of mentioning clones in the book ... to the extent of "Buyer Beware" and how to authenicate a real CS.

As we've seen in many magazine articles the info included is not always correct.

Let's get it right and have this be a great reference guide and registry book as it should be.

Paul, this is your book and I understand your desire to get as much input from this passionate group of owners. It is your project to do with as you please. If you need the extra time take it but you need to do what you feel it right. You have a lot invested and taking a risk much like someone starting their own business. Most importantly for you in my opinion is to have no regrets looking back. Do it right the 3rd time :grin: as I assumed you did the with the 1st two books.

Yes we're all anxious but that's because we are looking forward to the book and that's why we can't wait for the mailer to show up, the book to be published, and get our grubby little hands on it ... Good Luck!

Pauls quote "I know that other marquees, such as the orig. Cobra owners vs. the Replica Cobra (kit cars), there can be some animosity."

-As a former Shelby owner the animosity became more pronounced when the "clone cars" we passing them off as real Shelby’s.
-As many real Shelby owners will tell you they get tired answering “is it real”
-I appreciate all well done cars of all makes I just have a problem with those clone car owners who try to pass of their cars as something that they are not. Doug

AMEN, Paul. Do what you have to do with the time that it will take to make the NEW book as comprehensive, complete and informative as you can "build" it. I say that "patience is a virtue" and I'm feel certain that such a book will blow our doors off. Thank you! Bob Teets here.

In the movie "Ice Station Zebra", they show Marines putting their M-16s together blindfolded. I can assemble a GT/CS in my head! LOL!! We're talking having a mind full of "stuff" that needs to be put on paper.

A lot of this book is like a glorified scrapbook. I have (old) text that needs a lot of editing, and lots and lots of photos and drawings; both old and new.

It's like "crunch" time for a Master's Degree. I'll be devoting all my time on this right after the mailer goes out.

thanks for the support....
(p.s. I transferred the Party video to DVDs today for computer editing for the DVD. Your Red 428 looks fantastic!!)

Paul N.

Just for the record. I don't think anyone was knocking or trying to put down clone owners.
This is not a knock on clone owners at all.

I respect the clones as long as they don't try to sell it as the real thing.
Which gets us back to the point of mentioning clones in the book ... to the extent of "Buyer Beware" and how to authenicate a real CS.

-----------

Let's get it right and have this be a great reference guide and registry book as it should be.

Paul, this is your book and I understand your desire to get as much input from this passionate group of owners. It is your project to do with as you please. If you need the extra time take it but you need to do what you feel it right.

Do it right the 3rd time :grin: as I assumed you did the with the 1st two books.

Yes we're all anxious but that's because we are looking forward to the book and that's why we can't wait for the mailer to show up, the book to be published, and get our grubby little hands on it ... Good Luck!


Hey Rich.....

You're thoughtful to consider the owners/builders of clones. I was only gauging the response in the "no" catagory, as just a caution of passing too much judgment. This crowd...er.."family" has quite a lot of tolerance and patience and thoughtfulness, that I wouldn't expect anyone to really go out of their way to pass bad judgment against a clone owner in person.

I was once at a SAAC Convention in Portland, OR, and this guy pulled out his (real!) Cobra 427 out of a trailer that had a big DeTomaso emblem on the side, and I asked, "oh, do you have a Pantera", and he said "NO", as if to say "no, you #$%C&n' idiot, can't you see that I have a 427 COBRA!!!"

...OH. sorry I asked.

So, this happens everywhere....

As for the book-- I can envision lots of people wringing their hands to get them 'dere grubby paws on the book... I know.

Third time IS the charm, you know...(geesch, Rich, you're now on the same list RVTrash is on...and you can't get off it..nope! ....LOL!!!!)

The mailer will get most salivating soon enough. The momentum is just beginning.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Paul N.

-As many real Shelby owners will tell you they get tired answering “is it real”
-I appreciate all well done cars of all makes I just have a problem with those clone car owners who try to pass of their cars as something that they are not. Doug

I agree. Totally. It has more to do with the resale of these cars. I was just at a car wash, and a guy was wiping off his '66 Hertz Shelby, and I caught myself asking "is this a real Shelby". DUH!!

I guess it's combined annoyance, and a pride thing to be asked, because you can think or say ...."Why, but of course! mine is real" <<gleeming pride>>

I don't want to sound "mean", but if you have a clone, it's it an ongoing, akward thing to be asked, and then you have to explain. Because if you say that it IS real, you run the risk of an expert pointing out that it's not, then what do you do? backpeddle? I think that we've got a LOT of GT/CS experts now, and I think the CS clone makers may be a bit more nervous when they encounter us...

That's why I suggest instead of a GT/CS clone, just make a Little Red, or a Green Hornet, or a Trans Am Racer, or something that is more of a custom Mustang. Make it your own.

Paul N.

no clones, a smart person selling a gt/cs will have the marti report.
and don't most of us owners have our reports. a section in the book explaning authentification of the gt/cs would be great.
if we don't protect the value of our cars, nobody else will.
jbart

Hey Rich.....

...(geesch, Rich, you're now on the same list RVTrash is on...and you can't get off it..nope! ....LOL!!!!)

Paul N.

Welcome aboard Rich! :icon_pira

Steve

Welcome aboard Rich! :icon_pira

Steve

LOL!! I'm in good company no doubt :smile:

Not to go too far off topic. I just got a message from someone looking at my car on eBay. He is in the process of building a CS clone because he can't afford the real thing.
He knew about Little Red, the Green Hornet, etc ...

I hope he does a great job building a clone, doesn't try to sell it off as real and then someday can afford to enjoy real CS ownership.
In the meantime he will enjoy what he has.

If our cars were in the Shelby price range a lot more of us wouldn't be driving them like they do. I wouldn't mind our cars hitting those numbers don't get me wrong. But I love driving them. I look at the Shelby clones and say to myself "Maybe I don't blame people for doing that. They can drive it without fear of driving a car worth 6 figures!"

Like they say, imitation is the greatest form of flattery ... or something like that.

That's how I look at it. And I don't mind when people ask me "Is it a Real CS?"

On the East Coast I get more of "What is that?" or "You put those Cal Special emblems on yourself right? That's not factory right?" or "I've heard of them but I've never seen one in person" etc ... I enjoy telling the history of these cars over and over and I've yet to find someone that doesn't stop and listen and ask more questions without rushing off.

OK back on topic now!

LOL!! I'm in good company no doubt :smile:
OK back on topic now!

ROFL!!

Aye, Matey! Avast ye scurvy scum!!
"tis be those on my "list" that will be sent waaay down to Davey Jones Mustang Locker!

Ye be best be stickin' on topic, lad....AARRGH!!

"Captain Paul Newitt"