. Satan is a cool girl

All,
Amy brought Satan over to my house today and Mike Godwin, Amy, and myself attacked her heating problems. Her engine runs great, with no noises and this car with the new white stripes is gorgeous!! The interior is very nice. The underside is not as bad as people have said. This car is a beautiful car and a great rolling restoration for Amy as money affords. But it is very beautiful NOW!!!

Amy is so much fun! We had a great time and she gets right into the grease! She chased bolt threads and is so interested in the finer point of these cars. After about 5 minutes with Amy you learn she is a driven women who knows how to take care of herself and has charted her own course in life. And if you think she is enthusiastic in e-mail, get ready, you don’t know the half of it!!

Back to Satan. Ron’s radiator had been plugged by the stuff in her engine on the way up from California. We were able to get out her block plugs very easily and we flushed and flushed. Bottom up with direct hose pressure into the block drain and top down later. Trust me, Satan has a clean block!! Satan had a 4 blade stock fan, so we but on a 5 blade factory Ford flex fan. We put in my old 3 row brass radiator from my GT/CS. New water pump and away we go.

Very little difference!! Still heated up quickly at an idle.

Amy had told people that all was well until she installed vacuum lines to Satan’s “dis-turb-u-tor”. Then Satan went over the edge. Amy was right that this was the real culprit. Satan’s initial timing was set at about 6 degrees after top dead center!! Not before!! Satan has a dual diaphragm distributor and when hooked to vacuum the “back” diaphragm retarded the timing another 6 degrees. At idle she was running a solid 12 degrees to far retarded. This makes you run very hot.

It was late in the day, so I removed the vacuum to the sending unit and just used one line to the front diaphragm of the distributor and spun her initial to 6 degrees before as stock.

Please weigh in on the proper routing of the vacuum hoses and so on for a dual diaphragm distributor. I am recommending that she put it on the shelf in favor on a single diaphragm distributor for now. The dual diaphragm distributor was really all about pollution control and not all that good for performance IMO.

Satan is purring like a kitten and loves her new timing!! Satan will work fine as she is, but we will continue to dial her in. Heating problems are WAY lessened. Not that she should idle in Death Valley, but Satan is very driveable now!

This is one GREAT car, and a great investment by Amy. It needs a floor pan and a bit more work, but not a problem until Amy can afford it. Satan should be pebble beige which is the rarest color, but trust me she looks great in black with white stripes.

We got lots of photos!! Amy and I (Val) will post later. We got some shots of Val’s Fastback, our GT whatever it is, and Amy’s “black beauty”!!

WHAT A GREAT DAY!!

Rob

With CS friends, you can do anything!

What would I do without you guys?

A *special* thanks to Rob Campbell today for spending one whole sunny Sunday helping me with my overheating problem. New radiator, fan, water pump, and then she STILL had issues! Turned out the vacuum lines were causing her to overheat.

And hey, I got a great radiator and fan from Rob!

I had so much fun. Mike G. came over with his 2 cents. Thank you Mike!

We flushed the radiator. I'll let him explain this. OH yes, I have pictures!

Thank you Rob!!!

http://www.californiaspecial.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8800&stc=1&d=1241411524

http://www.californiaspecial.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8801&stc=1&d=1241411557

http://www.californiaspecial.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8802&stc=1&d=1241411586

More photos!

http://www.californiaspecial.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8803&stc=1&d=1241411835

http://www.californiaspecial.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8804&stc=1&d=1241411888
http://californiaspecial.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8806&stc=1&d=1241412470

Ha ha I just posted a new thread too! Check it out! "With friends..."

Thank you for the kind words. Rob, YOU are the BEST!

I had so much fun! Amy took pics of Rob's flushing stuff. Flush up, flush down! Satan has a clean engine!

We didn't get to have as much fun as we should!!

Val and I cannot wait until the next time!

Rob

...Wow, both cars look Great! (Rob, 'read your thread too Awesome!!

What a great day indeed! Amy, I'm glad you went with the white stripes - looks real sharp! So glad you two connected and are all smiles as it should be. Congratulations!

I cannot imagine it running worth spit at 6 deg atdc. As the guy who put most of the pollution gear on those cars back then, dont worry about the double diaphragm its actually nice. It retards your spark only at idle and as soon as the regular diaphragm sees vacuum it is back to its regular spark curve(it does not retard it thru the whole curve). In fact if you run a lot of initial like I usually do the old double diaphragm can be good because it gives you a cleaner idle. Depending on the engine they can run a little rough at say 12 to 16 degrees btdc but the off idle performance is worth it. When you use the double diaphragm it retards your idle back to 6 btdc which is the factory setting. Gives you a better idle and correct for the 2 barrell carb because you dont close off the transition slot which you sometimes have to do when you advance too far. So I like the DD distributor. Originally we put them on to reduce hydrocarbons and CO at idle. Idle was a big part of the epa testing so it meant something to reduce them even a little.

After reading this story it put a smile on my face; because I like many others have been in Amy's position - having a car that would just not behave, no matter what was tried. I can now go to sleep a happy person. Amy - enjoy the car. On a side note I love the hood on the other CS.

Doug

Ditto to that and congrats again!

Now with all the great experiences, success and new friendships that began with this car,.......

mechanicalguy48 said:

I cannot imagine it running worth spit at 6 deg atdc. As the guy who put most of the pollution gear on those cars back then, dont worry about the double diaphragm its actually nice. It retards your spark only at idle and as soon as the regular diaphragm sees vacuum it is back to its regular spark curve(it does not retard it thru the whole curve). In fact if you run a lot of initial like I usually do the old double diaphragm can be good because it gives you a cleaner idle. Depending on the engine they can run a little rough at say 12 to 16 degrees btdc but the off idle performance is worth it. When you use the double diaphragm it retards your idle back to 6 btdc which is the factory setting. Gives you a better idle and correct for the 2 barrell carb because you dont close off the transition slot which you sometimes have to do when you advance too far. So I like the DD distributor. Originally we put them on to reduce hydrocarbons and CO at idle. Idle was a big part of the epa testing so it meant something to reduce them even a little.

Click to expand...

From what I've seen the most common mistake people make is getting the vacuum hoses switched. The easiest way I know of to tell if the hoses are correct is to pull them off while the car is idling. The front hose should have no vacuum but the rear hose should have strong vacuum.

...On mine, the front hose goes to the carb and the rear to a "gang" receptacle on the intake...

The back hose to mine was plugged off. My shop told me not to do that and to just leave it open and connected to nothing (I ran a hose under the air cleaner and it just lays on top of the intake - for better looks). Keep in mind I run a Edlebrock performer intake and 4B carb. Casey

I just threw my original in a box and used a Pertronics Billet distributor. Runs like a top. I know, I know, it's not original, but I've still got the old parts to change it back for the future purist who owns it.

Here's what the book shows.

Sounds like a fun day. Wish I was there. I just KNEW Rob would square it away. I ran the double diaphram for years on a 289, A/C, A/T. I really liked the stock performance as mechanicalguy mentioned. (But you gotta have it hooked up correctly!!)
Rob, you mentioned floorpan - how are the framerails?
Amy, you NEED a big blowup of Tim's photo for your garage!!
Glad all went well.

Neil

Doug said:

On a side note I love the hood on the other CS.Doug

Click to expand...

That beautiful white/black hood is Rob's CS.

That other black beauty is Val's car... what a car...

Thank you for the diagram. And that photo, Tim! I will add it to my garage photos.

I've decided to throw out the a/c at this time, due to cost and the fact that in the summer I'll have the windows open so I can talk to those annoying people that knock on the window of the car with questions. The ferry ride yesterday was a good example of this. People up here just don't know about and haven't seen the 68 GT/CS before. Many 'thumbs up' while driving. It's fun, but distracting when they want you to talk at the red light.

I have pics of the undercarriage:

http://californiaspecial.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8821&stc=1&d=1241453962
http://californiaspecial.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8820&stc=1&d=1241453924
http://californiaspecial.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8819&stc=1&d=1241453870

Thanks again and again, Rob!

Yeah, I am sure some of you know this, others may not, but the "gang receptacle" at the front of your manifold is a temperature dependent "pvs". Pvs is "ported vacuum switch" some call it tvs or "Temperature vacuum switch" but the gist of it is that it switches vacuum signals using a temperature signal. On mine (and they are not all the same) the top two ports are open meaning they connect but the bottom one is closed which is the one the retard side of the vacuum is hooked to. This means when the engine is cold it doesnt retard(no signal) this gives you a little extra idle speed and help when the engine is cold. Then as the engine warms up the lower port opens and the retard now sees vacuum also. My engine was a 49 state engine and not a California sold vehicle so many of yours are different. The "pvs" comes in about a zillion different combinations and you have to test them hot and cold to see which ports are open and which ones are closed. They werent particularly troublesome, we used them on almost all vehicles in that period, you see them even today on cars. But , they do go bad and usually they fail in the "cold" position so checking them once in awhile is good.

Mechanicalguy,
Man do I want your first name. This one is way to long. I have named you MG for this post.

Thanks ALL for the pictures and it WAS hooked up properly by Mike Godwin (gee another MG). Full vacuum to the aft (closet to cap) diaphragm and ported vacuum to the front diaphragm. All thanks for the diagrams and such, because I have to be honest, my knowledge of these things was how fast can I remove all this crap and put in a single diaphragm style!!!

MG, it was not running all that bad at idle. I did not drive it other than to back it up. Throttle stop screw was about 2 to 3 turns opened to compensate for the lack of timing. This positioned the throttle plates too far “open” on the transfer slots on the carb. But, it still seemed to idle ok. A bet the sir screws are off now. I did not touch them after this huge change. Should have, but it was idling very well.

The back diaphragm, with full vacuum, I estimate retards the timing about 6 degrees. Amy actually drove the car for 2 weeks with no lines to the distributor diaphragms what so ever. Certainly not optimal, but it did not overheat. So the hooking up to the rear diaphragm to vacuum and retarding her car another 6 degrees at idle pushed it over the edge. I would run “ok” on the road, but got hot at idle. She tried to convince people that this was part of the problem, but no one listened. Yup this car was running in at about 10 to 12 degrees ATDC with the lines hooked up at idle. No wonder it overheated.

So, what I did was set her at 6 degrees initial and plugged her carbs ported vacuum line onto the front diaphragm. Removed the rest of the stuff, but she has it and with the pics ((THANKS) I can reinstall it. Car did not have a degree tape but I do have a timing light that allows timing back to the TDC mark. Should have taking an actual total reading.

So a couple questions:

The manual says pretty much 6 degrees BTDC for all Ford engines in this era. But, I am not a big manual follower!!

MG, you recommend running about 12 degrees initial and then let the back diaphragm remove 6 at an idle? Sounds great to me! I was a bit hurried last night, but I estimated it was about 34 degrees total at 3,000 RPM. Just a quick guess. Does that sound correct to you as I had it hooked up?

We did stand into it a couple times and it did not ping at all. She is running 89 at the pump. I would guess we may be able to go a bit more with the initial.

So MG, you are the blame for this dual diaphragm thingee!!! I told her we can either get another distributor, or install a single diaphragm on hers. I am leery of the second option as the centrifugal curves may not be compatible if I put a single diaphragm on a dual diaphragm distributor. Although I bet they are close enough to not affect it all that much.

Amy loved talking about timing!! She will love this post with the inclusion of transfer slots, their relationship to curb idle and to the air mixture screws!!

More Thoughts!

Neil,
This car has some rust, but it is not a "midwest" lightweight. It still needs a bit of frontend work, but all and all, if garaged and taken care of it will be just fine for Amy to enjoy until she becomes rich and wealthy and does a complete on her. We can address some of this stuff in a step by step process. Floor pan is a piece of cake.

All and all a very beautiful car! She needs some TLC and Amy will enjoy that part of it. She is an eager learner!

Rob

mechanicalguy48 said:

I cannot imagine it running worth spit at 6 deg atdc. As the guy who put most of the pollution gear on those cars back then, dont worry about the double diaphragm its actually nice. It retards your spark only at idle and as soon as the regular diaphragm sees vacuum it is back to its regular spark curve(it does not retard it thru the whole curve). In fact if you run a lot of initial like I usually do the old double diaphragm can be good because it gives you a cleaner idle. Depending on the engine they can run a little rough at say 12 to 16 degrees btdc but the off idle performance is worth it. When you use the double diaphragm it retards your idle back to 6 btdc which is the factory setting. Gives you a better idle and correct for the 2 barrell carb because you dont close off the transition slot which you sometimes have to do when you advance too far. So I like the DD distributor. Originally we put them on to reduce hydrocarbons and CO at idle. Idle was a big part of the epa testing so it meant something to reduce them even a little.

Click to expand...

All,
On a side note Amy is assigned to the neural (Amy, hope that is correct) unit at Swedish Hospital in Seattle. As we were getting greasy we talked about some nerve and leg pain that my son is suffering from. We have been to two other respected facilities in our area with no real answer. He no longer can day hike which was our most treasured hobby together. It has been this way for going on 3 years as we went from one doctor to the next.

It was amazing to see Amy’s professional side come out as we switched roles and she became the teacher instead of the “learner”. We didn’t even scratch the surface of a scratch on the surface of her skills!! She is one intense lady.

Anyway there was more than one reason for the two of us to get together. Hopefully I can walk through a doorway towards helping my son! Amazing how all this fits together sometimes. Almost by design…..

Rob

Rob & Amy,

Sounds like you made quite a bit of progress this weekend and had lots of fun while you were at it! Glad to hear that things are starting to go your way with that car. She is beautiful!!