California Special verses the Shelby

[Mustanglvr]

Thanks Arlie and everybody else for your views. I think the 302`s in the GT350`s were the HiPo engines weren`t they?

 

[PNewitt]

There's a long story to be explained about whether a GT/CS "is a Shelby" or not. This is something that I'll address in the new book.

I think that the marketing forces at Ford--at that time--really didn't think out what these cars would, or would not be past about three years. All they wanted was to capitalize on the Shelby trend at the time.

Shelby AUTOMOTIVE, which was part of Ford from about mid-1967, did a variety of things, like sunroofs on T-Birds, or design stuff for the Cougar, or Mustangs, as well as the main purpose, to do the '68 and 69-70 Shelbys.

So--the GT/CS became part of that period, and it was another project assigned to the Shelby Team. Shelby Automotive was pretty much not the same crowd as those who hand built the '65-67 Shelbys at LAX factory, along with the Daytonas, Cobras, etc.

Since the 70's, the Shelby name has been used on a variety of cars, including those Chryslers (Omni GLHS, etc...), and the Series One, as well as these continuation cars. So--outside of the '65 GT-350s to the '67 GT-500s, what qualifies a car "as a Shelby"?

I've never pretended to equal the CS with a '68 GT-350 or 500, and have told SAAC that more than once. I DO know that Shelby Automotive assigned parts to both the '68 Shelby Mustang and the GT/CS at the same time. During design, engineering, and even testing, the CS was "lumped" into the '68 Shelby program. I'll get into this more in the book.

I can tell you that I'm awaiting a response from SAAC, as to whether "we" as CS owners get to be recognized within the Shelby world, in a more defined way. I was asked by Rick Kopec to write something for their '1997 World Registry" about the GT/CS, so there must be some Shelby recognition there...

This is a good question, thanks, Rhonda. But it requires a long answer, although with no disillusions.

Paul N.

 

[Russ]

Regarding the engine in a 1968 GT 350 and a production Mustang "J" code engine.......the engines are identical. Both has the C80E hi-compression heads, cast iron 4V intake manifolds, etc. There were no hi-performance cams in a Shelby in 1968 either. Basically, when you purchased a 1968 Shelby GT 350, you got a GT suspension, J code engine, stiffer shocks, 9 inch rear end, upgraded, deluxe interior and a nice looking fiberglass enhanced exterior.

Performance for the 1968 Shelby GT 350 was not something to write home about, but it sure LOOKED good!!!

Russ

 

[Mustanglvr]

Regarding the engine in a 1968 GT 350 and a production Mustang "J" code engine.......the engines are identical. Both has the C80E hi-compression heads, cast iron 4V intake manifolds, etc. There were no hi-performance cams in a Shelby in 1968 either. Basically, when you purchased a 1968 Shelby GT 350, you got a GT suspension, J code engine, stiffer shocks, 9 inch rear end, upgraded, deluxe interior and a nice looking fiberglass enhanced exterior.

Perforamce for the 1968 Shelby GT 350 was not something to write home about, but it sure LOOKED good!!!

Russ

Sounds like a fastback California Special to me.:icon_bore

 

[Russ]

Rhonda, Today it's a "HIGH DOLLAR" GT/CS fastback!!!!

Russ

 

[Unregistered]

Hey Russ, you may know this better than I do, but I show the 1968 GT350s with higher compression and more horse-power than the standard Mustang J-code engines.

Scott

 

[Russ]

Hi Scott,
I think the difference in horsepower (230 vs. 250) is related to the dual exhaust of the GT (remember J code cars came from the factory with single exhaust) and Shelby models, and that the Shelby was tested with the aluminum Cobra intake. As you know, the early Shelbys were delivered with the stock cast iron intake because the aluminum intake could not pass emission standards. On May 21, 1968 dealers were contacted to call back the early GT 350's to replace the cast iron intake with the aluminum one, which had now met the emission standards. Also, the Shelby came with a 600 cfm carburetor once the intake manifold was replaced. The compression is 10.5 on both the J code and Shelby, I think.

By the way, do you still have your R code fastback??

Russ

 

[GTCSMustang]

Russ,

I show the regular J-code Mustangs with 10.0:1 compression and the Shelbys with 10.5:1. Not sure what the difference between the two would be unless it's the intake like you mentioned. And I have a 1968 J-code GT convertible with factory dual-exhaust. Same exhaust set-up as the Shelbys except for the tailpipes (resonator pipes, transverse muffler), so I don't think the HP difference is the exhaust. It's all original exhaust and never been off the car. I sold the 1968.5 CJ to free up money to buy YOUR highland green CS...when should I come and get it? Just kidding, actually sold several Mustangs to free up some money for my "final, never be able to afford another" 1968 Shelby GT500KR cvt. Have 3-of them now so I'm quitting....I'm broke.

Scott

 

[390cs68rcode]

good to see you around Scott. You might be broke but you have some cool iron.

 

[GTCSMustang]

Hey Jason,

I may be hitting you up for some money if I find something else to buy. Get you checkbook ready.

Scott

 

[390cs68rcode]

if..........

you mean when. As much as you search out cool stuff. :icon_lol:


remember those tie downs?

 

[p51]

I still want to know how much Ford and/or Mustang is in a Shelby?

Here's my $0.02 on this. There is probably 90%+ of a Ford Mustang in a Shelby Mustang but about 10% of a Shelby Mustang in a Ford Mustang GT/CS (based on the inspiration). The way to describe the dicotomy is with an analogy. In college a friend of mine had a poster of Picasso's "Femme". Its very attractive. Its made of only four curves. When I first saw it I said to my friend "I could have painted that". His reply "But you didnt"....

The mods that Shelby did to the Fastback to make it a Shelby are something that anyone could do fairly cheaply and - considering the quality of todays parts - probably make something with even better performance. But what makes a Shelby a Shelby is that Carroll took a Ford Mustang. Made mods. And *won* races. Anyone could have done this but it was Shelby that did it. If you find one of the original cars that was a winner you can bet its much more expensive that a "standard" Shelby - its like an original painting. A Shelby coming out of Shelby automotive is equivalent to a limited edition print. And a GTCS is equivalent to a painting by another painter that was inspired by the original...

Having said all that I personally like the GTCS better than a Shelby, it is rarer than a Shelby (based on # built), and personally I like that they are relatively inexpensive - it makes it so much easier to drive :smile:

 

[PNewitt]

I like P-51's analogy, but some of the same paint and the same artists worked on the GT/CS and the Shelbys at the same time--side-by-side.

I think it's important to understand just what "Shelby Automotive" was, compared to "Shelby American". I wouldn't equate a GT/CS to the '65-'67 Shelbys, since they were built in a different way at the LAX facility.

When Ford "homoginized" the Shelby cars for '68-'70, (some would say) they lost that "hot rodding' aspect, like the original GT-350s.

It's in the time frame and context of Shelby Automotive that I base my argument of how a GT/CS has more Shelby in it than people might think. This is a marketing and design car, rather than a specific "race on Sunday, Sell on Monday" type of car. If you think of the GT/CS as a little brother to a '68 Shelby (and a derative of the shelved Shelby coupe idea), then you're in the ballpark.

Paul N.

 

[Mustanglvr]

Thank you Paul, you have answered my question.
Rhonda

 

[case12]

I finally got my hands on the 1988 Shelby American magazine #53 from eBay which has the interview with Fred Goodell, chief engineer at Shelby, and creator of "Little Red". It is a very good article, but relating to this thread here is a piece I found interesting - quoting from the article:

SAAC: Did you have anything to do with the 1968 Mustang GT/CS - California Special?
GOODELL: Sure I did. That idea came from Little Red. We had Little Red in a show in Los Angeles and the Ford District Sales Manager saw it. He called me up and said he would like to come in and talk with us; he wanted to know how we came up with that car. He came in and we told him. He asked if it was practical to build that type of a car from a regular Mustang. We said it was, and that they were welcomed to use any or all of the parts that made up the Shelby. After all, we were all a part of the Ford Motor Company. They had a couple of meetings and decided that the only parts they wanted were the side scoops and the rear deck and taillights. The didn't want the hood, nose or roll bar and shoulder harness.

Also interesting....

SAAC: You drove a lot of cars during the time you were at Shelby's. Which one was your favorite.
GOODELL: No question - Little Red. I really liked that car. It had a nice feel to it. And as a notchback it sure looked different from all of those fastbacks. And man, did it move.

I think this is why even Shelby owners like the California Special. It is Shelby inspired, but as a notchback it looks different.

Casey

 

[390cs68rcode]

dang, we almost got the hood and nose!

 

[mmarsalone]

dang, we almost got the hood and nose!

Amen, Thinking the same thing myself.:icon_lol:

 

[68sunlitgold]

Well I think Casey's post can sure help in the effort to get us recognized by SAAC. With Goodell answering the question "Did you have anything to do with the 1968 Mustang GT/CS - California Special?", and his anwser was "Sure I did".

I also like Pauls words "If you think of the GT/CS as a little brother to a '68 Shelby, then you're in the ballpark."

Doug

 

[PNewitt]

Thanks, Doug. I guess I'll have to use that phrase in the book.

I spoke with Fred several times on the phone many years ago. What a guy. He had a raspy "General Patton" voice, and he shot from the hip. Told it like it is, no less. At 70, he was out in "Desert Storm" looking at how his military vehicles were working (BMT).

One time, a '68 Shelby fell down an freight elevator shaft at the A.O. Smith assembly plant, and the guys there thought it was funny. Fred told them to get that "#*$&%" car back up out of there pronto!! It was NOT funny. He also told A.O. Smith to engineer the fiberglass to be twice as strong as the Corvette fiberglass (which was made there, too).

Fred liked the GT/CS, and spoke of it like it was another Shelby project. We talked about Little Red, and how BIll Cosby drove it "all the time".

The GT/CS was the first Ford in production to use fiberglass parts at the factory. That is what makes it even MORE special!

Paul N.

 

[GTCSMustang]

Jason,

I guess my friend isn't going to come through with the tie-downs. Anything else you need that I might have?

Scott