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1968 GT/CS & HCS
2007+ GT/CS
1966-1967 HCS
-
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Curious--how much less is a CS worth w/o...
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68sunlitgold
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Deadstang,
I think it would depend on the engine size, but I would gather anywhere between 10-25% going up in engine size.
Doug
I think it would depend on the engine size, but I would gather anywhere between 10-25% going up in engine size.
Doug
Russ
Well-known member
I would be careful about determining value of a car that has had its engine swapped. It is a rare find indeed, for a 35+ year-old car to have its original engine/drive train.
I also think it must be clear as to what constitutes a "numbers-matching" car. It is clear that Ford had casting dates on engine blocks, heads, and manifolds, and these are easily read. Also on the block, just below the driver's side head on the front of the engine is the stamped assembly date. Many other engine parts, including the fan, distributor, and carburetor, have specific date codes that identify assembly/build dates.
I think the matching-numbers issue is a bit over done unless you are trying to build/restore an MCA concours car. I've read in this forum that San Jose cars had the VIN number stamped on the block. I have two original San Jose cars and neither has the stamping. My 1966 GT 350 has the VIN stamped on the block on the passenger side next to the pan, and it is well documented that 1965-66 hi-po engines were stamped with the VIN.
At the San Jose assembly plant in 1968, what would be the purpose of stamping the VIN on the block, especially when the VIN can be found in four other places? It seems like it would make it much more difficult and take more time to assemble the car as it rolled along the assembly line.
To be safe, I would check the casting dates and the stamped assembly date to determine the originality of the engine assembly. As to value, leave that up to the buyer.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Russ
I also think it must be clear as to what constitutes a "numbers-matching" car. It is clear that Ford had casting dates on engine blocks, heads, and manifolds, and these are easily read. Also on the block, just below the driver's side head on the front of the engine is the stamped assembly date. Many other engine parts, including the fan, distributor, and carburetor, have specific date codes that identify assembly/build dates.
I think the matching-numbers issue is a bit over done unless you are trying to build/restore an MCA concours car. I've read in this forum that San Jose cars had the VIN number stamped on the block. I have two original San Jose cars and neither has the stamping. My 1966 GT 350 has the VIN stamped on the block on the passenger side next to the pan, and it is well documented that 1965-66 hi-po engines were stamped with the VIN.
At the San Jose assembly plant in 1968, what would be the purpose of stamping the VIN on the block, especially when the VIN can be found in four other places? It seems like it would make it much more difficult and take more time to assemble the car as it rolled along the assembly line.
To be safe, I would check the casting dates and the stamped assembly date to determine the originality of the engine assembly. As to value, leave that up to the buyer.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Russ
68sunlitgold
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Russ,
I would agree with you that for value that someone looking to do a concourse restoration it is a must for number matching. However, I know that when I bought my mustangs, my intent is to restore them, maybe not concourse but who knows down the road. And if I ever sold them, the next owner may want to, so matching numbers is a big plus.
Also, of the 3 68 mustangs I own, 2 from San Jose, all 3 have the VIN # stamped into the block.
I can't remember where I read it, but I believe it was used to match engines with cars as they came down the assemble line. That is, if someone ordered a car, the engine needed to match all the other options on the car, therefore VINs were stamped in the engine blocks. I do agree that the other date/part numbers need to also match to be correct but all those parts can be purchased. A correct "matching VIN" block can not.
Doug
I would agree with you that for value that someone looking to do a concourse restoration it is a must for number matching. However, I know that when I bought my mustangs, my intent is to restore them, maybe not concourse but who knows down the road. And if I ever sold them, the next owner may want to, so matching numbers is a big plus.
Also, of the 3 68 mustangs I own, 2 from San Jose, all 3 have the VIN # stamped into the block.
I can't remember where I read it, but I believe it was used to match engines with cars as they came down the assemble line. That is, if someone ordered a car, the engine needed to match all the other options on the car, therefore VINs were stamped in the engine blocks. I do agree that the other date/part numbers need to also match to be correct but all those parts can be purchased. A correct "matching VIN" block can not.
Doug
rvrtrash
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My CS has the VIN stamped in the block also, however,
as I have reported here previously, the number is two
digits off (last 3 are 110 instead of 112). I think the case
could be made that this was the original engine as the
possibility of getting one only 2 digits away after the
fact is virtually impossible. The next part of the question
is if it's obviously the wrong one. It seems everyone asks if it's the original engine but most don't know how
to verify it and I've never seen anyone crawl in to look for the numbers. Except for a mental hangup, I believe most people are more interested in how the car looks and runs, especially for a driver.
as I have reported here previously, the number is two
digits off (last 3 are 110 instead of 112). I think the case
could be made that this was the original engine as the
possibility of getting one only 2 digits away after the
fact is virtually impossible. The next part of the question
is if it's obviously the wrong one. It seems everyone asks if it's the original engine but most don't know how
to verify it and I've never seen anyone crawl in to look for the numbers. Except for a mental hangup, I believe most people are more interested in how the car looks and runs, especially for a driver.
Calspecialdreamer
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Hi gang,
I would have to disagree with you n.id.steve. I have dealt with mustangs (and old cars) for many years and the first question most ENTHUSIASTS ask is "Do the numbers match?" It is very easy to tell on the block, however, the debate can be made about the heads also. I had a cracked head on my 68 and swapped the head with another 68, so the case could be made I don't have a NME (# matching engine). When I sell, I will inform the buyer. I would offer 50% of car value if the numbers don't match. It severly lowers the price! Now if you have a RestoMod, that is another story. Most cases (if its a quality resto) the price goes up tho the engine probably won't match. My humble opinions of course....
I would have to disagree with you n.id.steve. I have dealt with mustangs (and old cars) for many years and the first question most ENTHUSIASTS ask is "Do the numbers match?" It is very easy to tell on the block, however, the debate can be made about the heads also. I had a cracked head on my 68 and swapped the head with another 68, so the case could be made I don't have a NME (# matching engine). When I sell, I will inform the buyer. I would offer 50% of car value if the numbers don't match. It severly lowers the price! Now if you have a RestoMod, that is another story. Most cases (if its a quality resto) the price goes up tho the engine probably won't match. My humble opinions of course....
hookedtrout
Well-known member
I would offer 50% of car value if the numbers don't match. It severly lowers the price!
Wow, a 50% drop in value if the numbers don't match. I would think that is a bit drastic dependent upon the condition of the car. If the car is immaculate, rust free with an excellent restoration, and has the correct engine just not a numbers matching engine I'd pay what the car is worth. Numbers matching is WAY overrated in my opinion unless you are concourse showing which I doubt I ever will even though my GT/CS is numbers matching. No fun for ME in making it a mantle piece.
Cory
Wow, a 50% drop in value if the numbers don't match. I would think that is a bit drastic dependent upon the condition of the car. If the car is immaculate, rust free with an excellent restoration, and has the correct engine just not a numbers matching engine I'd pay what the car is worth. Numbers matching is WAY overrated in my opinion unless you are concourse showing which I doubt I ever will even though my GT/CS is numbers matching. No fun for ME in making it a mantle piece.
Cory
Russ
Well-known member
Cory, I totally agree with you.
Russ
Russ
Calspecialdreamer
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Brandon,
You are correct saying the numbers are on top. They should be at the back of the engine just where it matches up with the bell housing of your transmission. Make sure you have a rag, and look for a flat portion of the engine.
You are correct saying the numbers are on top. They should be at the back of the engine just where it matches up with the bell housing of your transmission. Make sure you have a rag, and look for a flat portion of the engine.
Calspecialdreamer
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Brandon,
That is correct. Probably best to take a towel and put it over the drivers fender, lean over, and have a good look. Be sure to take the breather off to have more light and better access!
That is correct. Probably best to take a towel and put it over the drivers fender, lean over, and have a good look. Be sure to take the breather off to have more light and better access!
Calspecialdreamer
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Brandon,
If you have the correct door, there should be a data plate on your drivers door. Match the last 6 numbers on that data plate to the number you find on your engine. I have a 289 also, so it should be right where I've said. Also, you MAY have a VIN number on your dash. That number would match the VIN on your drivers door and the last 6 numbers should match your number on the engine......Hope this helps.......
If you have the correct door, there should be a data plate on your drivers door. Match the last 6 numbers on that data plate to the number you find on your engine. I have a 289 also, so it should be right where I've said. Also, you MAY have a VIN number on your dash. That number would match the VIN on your drivers door and the last 6 numbers should match your number on the engine......Hope this helps.......
Calspecialdreamer
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Brandon,
You must look at the back of the engine, over the driver side fender. It is a stamping so the numbers are not 'cast' into the block. It is not as clear as the firing order. Take some cleaner, spray it on the back of the engine where it mates with the transmission, wipe it with a rag, and you should see it there. If you cant find the VIN on the car anywhere, check your title. good luck!
You must look at the back of the engine, over the driver side fender. It is a stamping so the numbers are not 'cast' into the block. It is not as clear as the firing order. Take some cleaner, spray it on the back of the engine where it mates with the transmission, wipe it with a rag, and you should see it there. If you cant find the VIN on the car anywhere, check your title. good luck!
Calspecialdreamer
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I am going to see if I can take a picture of mine. The other numbers were not your firing order, but probably the numbers of your intake manifold. give me a few hours, I am at work and have to wait until I get home. I don't think you are making this too hard, I don't think I am explaining this well enough........See you later....
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