Registry Question for my new book

[PNewitt]

I think what is coming together here is a common thought about how to do the registry. The Shelby Club (SAAC) over the years has been dilligent and lucky to find the Shelby paper trails for (pretty much) ALL of the '65-'70 Shelbys , Cobras and GT-40. That type of paper trail just isn't possible for the GT/CS, since it requires some sort of invoice listing, either from Ford or as a Marti Report.

I totally agree with those who are original owners that a copy of the original paperwork is just fine for authenticity (or second, third, etc., owners with the same paperwork in hand). I didn't mean to imply that a Marti Report was the only way to do this.

I will list as many GT/CS and '68 HCS cars (including '66 and '67 HCS cars is another issue, and worth discussing later) as possible, including those that are already in the GT/CS Registry since 1988. It's clear that so many owners and potential buyers really want to know "is it real?". I have explained the parameters in both data and parts details how to really narrow it down, but if you don't have any Ford paperwork, and you are still curious, I can't see why spending the minimum $17 to Marti to be sure would be a problem.

So... I will list the cars as I have. I will have a column that will indicate if the owner has the original paperwork (i.e. invoice) that states "California Special Option", AND/OR a copy of the Marti Report. Having these items marked next to particular cars does NOT mean that those cars without this info as "less authentic"; it just provides additional authenticity information to the owner, reader, or potential buyer.

I will mail out either post cards or letters this late spring to everyone in the registry (about 800) that this is what is being done, and it's their choice what to do. I'll include Marti's address, etc. to help them out.

After all these years, I'd say that (in my observation) that "fake" GT/CS cars are very few, and those done like that are usually poorly "faked". Unless these cars suddenly hit $40K+, I can't see anyone going to a whole lot of trouble to fake one. Besides, with "everyone" (that's you--the "GT/CS Police") out there & so aware of what to look for--and point out "fakes", I think we're fairly secure in knowing. Before the advent of the Marti Report, I was pretty vigilant in looking out for cars that were "questionable" for the registry.

I 'm not interested n spending $$$ having Marti provide information (@$80/hr.), since it could cost a small fortune. "IF" this information were to become available, it might better be presented on this website--which would probably be the best place to have it anyway (right Jon?).

Paul N.

 

[jc68gtcs]

One list makes the most sense to me.. I'm new to this and the Marti report while it does seem important, I have to ask is it really one guy that has all of the control over determining who's car is authentic and who's isn't. Please tell me there's more to this than just one guy. The truck theory comes to mind.

Sure would be nice if the Registry was all about authentic cars ONLY, regardless of how they got authenticated. As in the case of the original owners, I'm sure that they could provide their own proof that their cars are the real deal..

 

[nfrntau]

I haven't heard much regarding the "Ford" report. It's free and also tells us the answer to this key question. Is it authentic? I called Ford and asked for one. The guy I spoke to was very helpful and about 6 weeks later it came in the mail. It does differ from Marti on the built date by one day but they both agree that I have an actual GT/CS. Is the Ford report not verification also?
Am I misinterpreting this?

 

[PNewitt]

I totally agree--very good point.

I will include in the registry, three columns that can be checked:

1. Original Invoice
2. Ford Report
3. Marti Report

One to all three can be checked, depending what I get in the mail.

More on those details ASAP.

Paul N.

 

[jc68gtcs]

I like that, multiple levels of verification.

 

[68MustangHCS]

I personally don't think it matters what the verification is, only that it has been documented. 3 columns seems like it might take up too much space. I personally believe that a registry should only accept authenticated cars, owners who don't want to provide the authentication shouldn't be included. Why register something that isn't authentic? Just a question to ponder. I'm not trying to ruffel any feathers, but I would think a registry would be real authentic cars only. If an owner doesn't want to provide the information even if it is clear in their mind that it is authentic, then the owner opts not to be included, simple. I wouldn't want to purchase a registry book knowing that some of the cars in the book arn't authenticated and could be clones. If someone doesn't have documentation, and is too cheap to spend $17 then thats their choice. I just think if it's going to be done, for my moneys worth and everyone elses, it should be done right with no exceptions.

 

[PNewitt]

I have always believed in making this whole GT/CS REGISTRY thing as something for enthusiasts. If you could see some of my mail from over the years, you'd agree that this is not about making this an "elitist" group of cars and owners. This is not an Aston Martin or Lotus Super-Seven Registry.

My intent is to provide information and enthusuasm for owners and others who are into these cars. The Registry is just one part of my book. There are many owners who are appreciative of what I have done, and I'm not about to exclude them just because they don't necessairily have the exact paperwork. Besides--I think this "fakes" estimate is way over stated. We have the resources--and lots of owners out there to "expose" misrepresentation, if those owners try to do that.

I don't mislead anyone in my books when it comes to what these cars are. I include disclaimers to say that these cars are based on info sent to me. The burden of proof of authenticity is on the owner--especially during a sale, or car show. I never say that just because a car is in the registry that it is "real".

I would like to know what other Mustang registries do for "authenticity" if the limited edition information is not reflected in the VIN or door tag (like Twister Special, Ski Country, etc..)

Paul N.

 

[68sunlitgold]

jc68gtcs,
You asked the question about who is Kevin Marti and why is his report so important and why does he have control over determining if a GT/CS is real. Well Kevin was the fortunate one to think how he could use actual Ford magnetic data tape that contains actual Vehicle Order information to provide individuals with vehicle data. He is licensed by Ford to provide this info.

To answer nfrntau's question about CAC info, I agree it is a great "Free" source of info, however I have 3 cars and none of the CAC reports reflect what was actually on the car. So getting back to the Marti report, it is the only source to give you actual info on a car, that is not so say a CAC will not have the "California Option" on it but it may not and your car could be one.

Now I agree with hookedtrout that if a owner has the original paperwork from the car, why spend money to prove it.

Paul, why not just have one column stating "confirmed" which can be done by any of the three options.

Doug

 

[PNewitt]

I could say confirmed--but that could be too vague, and I'd be getting all kinds of questions.

Doing a registry is a lot of very tedious work. Not every limited edition Mustang group does one. Mine has been one of the more detailed. Most just have the name and VIN, and door tag info. The 1996 book took me 6 months to enter all the data from those registry forms.

Let me think this one over. I would like to basically publish what owners send me, but to not mislead anyone. But this type of car is difficult. If they only had put the GT/CS option in the VIN, life would be a lot easier at this end.

Paul N.

 

[rvrtrash]

First, I agree with Doug on the Ford report. It's probably hit or miss. My VIN is one unit off of a car in the '96 registry and my Ford report listed red strips but didn't come right out and say California Special. Second, to Paul N., if you're using Excel to enter your data-or something you can convert Excel into-and you wanted to send me copies of some of what you have, I would be happy to do some data entry, put it on a CD and mail it back to you, just to help out.
Steve

 

[hookedtrout]

[quote author=PNewitt link=board=1;threadid=1507;start=15#msg9005 date=1111904338]

My intent is to provide information and enthusuasm for owners and others who are into these cars. The Registry is just one part of my book. There are many owners who are appreciative of what I have done, and I'm not about to exclude them just because they don't necessairily have the exact paperwork. Besides--I think this "fakes" estimate is way over stated. We have the resources--and lots of owners out there to "expose" misrepresentation, if those owners try to do that.

Paul N.

[/quote]

Thanks Paul. I've been a member of this web site for many many years, my car has been in every registry. I have one of each of your books purchased in advance of printing and spent countless hours watching the mail box for them to show up, especially the first one. I have watched this site grow from a small group of GT/CS owners that just loved being together with other owners to a large group with a lot of new ideas. Not that new is bad nor is change but we all have and deal with issues on our own level of importance.

I know my car is authentic and as I have said many times before. Owning my GT/CS has nothing to do with money or in your face I have one you don't issues. I love the fun of having it out and about and the conversations that go along with it. I love talking the GT/CS talk here on the web and when I do it's because I've had an intimate relationship with my GT/CS for well over 20 years and Paul has taught me what I couldn't figure out. Shoving a Marti report in someones face to prove a point is pointless to me. I don't care if it's 50 cents, it has nothing to do with the money or the paper. It has to do with the love of the car. I don't care if I drive it around and people think it's a fake something or other. Life isn't about being better, having more or proving anything to anyone (to me). I have the car, it's real, I know it's real I've known every owner of the car, I don't have the original paper work and I could care less that I don't. Just as long as I have the car, I can go out and drive the car, and I can enjoy it. If people want to argue the cars authenticity with me it's a waste of my time, time that could be spent driving the car and enjoying it so move out from in front of the car if you want to argue about it cuzz I'm cruising.

And I can't say enough how appreciative I am of what you have done Paul. All of my indepth GT/CS education has been through you. Particularly in the early 80's when I purchased the car.

Thanks again.

Hook

 

[Andrew]

Well said my friend. From "California Corral" until the new book, Paul has carried us with his knowkedge. And to think I bought the car to travel to college in.

 

[hookedtrout]

[quote author=Andrew link=board=1;threadid=1507;start=30#msg9018 date=1111939646]
Well said my friend. From "California Corral" until the new book, Paul has carried us with his knowkedge. And to think I bought the car to travel to college in.
[/quote]

I had a little different plan when I bought mine and it served it's purpose well. My Special was actually my second Mustang. My first car purchased at the young age of 14 was a 65 Mustang sold originally at John E Nois Ford somewhere in California, I bought it in San Clemente, California and still have the black plates from that car somewhere. I was the second owner of that car. I've had Mustang running in my veins for many a year and giving the girls a ride in my Mustang was the highlight of it all. I still give the girls a ride only now the girls are my Wife and my daughter. ;D

Hook

 

[PNewitt]

I appreciate the comments by Hook and others that support what I have done for owners of the GT/CS and the '68 HCS. I'll try to not take the complements and run with them TOO much, except to say what this is all about--for me and for those who own these cars.

When I started this in 1985, I was only into researching the GT/CS, and I started a GT/CS SURVEY with a form to fill out, sent to hundreds of people. In doing this, I quickly found a true appreciation for the car. It became MORE than just a dressed up '68 Mustang coupe, and it became MORE than a Shelby-inspired limited edition. I saw a lot of real affection expressed for this car from so many letters that I got back in the mail (since 1985).

The CS is a styling option, and it had the luck of using Shelby parts, made in the same factory (A.O. Smith). The CS is not necessairily a Mustang that was sold based only on an "engine", like the Mach 1, Boss 302,351,429, or Shelby GT-500. Because of it's root as a styling and marketing vehicle, the GT/CS is about style and the California feeling and spirit. That is why it has become so intensly popular with it's owners. The attraction the the CS is in it's uniqueness. A coupe with Shelby parts made in a Ford factory is just sooo radical, but cool to many who just become aware of it. What makes it even more appealing is the potential to upgrade the engine, transmission, and other parts. That potential is greater than having a "regular" '68 Mustang coupe.

So, this is what it's about. Hook's comments express the heart of what this is all about. I couldn't have put it better myself. This new book will have a lot of new things with re-edited information, and a few surprises. The next registry book will spend more time on restoration and how-to fix or find something, than on whether each and every car is "real" or not. I'm not playing naive by saying that, but I know by reading these boards that there is a greater need for repair and restoration information--and concours info, too.

Paul N.

 

[68MustangHCS]

[quote author=PNewitt link=board=1;threadid=1507;start=15#msg9005 date=1111904338]

I never say that just because a car is in the registry that it is "real".

Paul N.

[/quote]

Paul and everyone else,

I see all of your points of view, and I appreciate it. We don't own $100,000 cars here and realize that. Some of us do own special unique cars and some don't. It took a lot people here hard work, lots of leg work to find their dream cars and arrange their purchases, and get them documented.

The way I see this registry and the attitude is enthusiasm, which is all good. But from the point of view I am getting from the quote above and from some others leaves me with this question:

Basically, if I am a Mustang enthusiast, and I own a 68 coupe, I can just register my car here regardless if it is real or not? Is that the correct representation of this registry? If so then this place should be open to all cars for registration. Am I off base here?

I see this a place where everyone can come and be members or observers regardless if they have a special car or not, and if they do have a special car, then register it, if not there are other options like posting pictures, chat, get great ideas, leads, camaraderie, buy parts, buy your dream car, or build your dream car.

This registry belongs to the members of it, and it should be their choice as to the way the cars should be registered, and whether it should allow authentic cars or all cars.

I don't see this as a place to make a profit selling books that may or may not contain correct information. The author of the book has a responsibility to list the most correct and accurate information possible if it is to be an authoritative document. Who wants to invest in a book that contains bogus information or statistics?

I am only expressing my opinion and hope others will see my point of view and either agree or disagree with it.

I would guess that if you polled the members, the majority of registry owners would want only authentic cars in the registry, if not then say its open to all cars. I will start a thread and see how it goes.

Steve K.

 

[C160223]

Hi Hook

My post is not intented to attack you or to start a war, but I think you are missing the point. It's not that no one thinks your car is not real or you don't want to spend the money for a report. The report is solely for documentation in the registry, so Paul has a record of verified cars. The Ford CAC report is only a phone call away, if you don't care for documentation about your car, send the original copy directly to Paul. If you don't have the time to make a call, email me your VIN, and I'll do it for you and send it to Paul.

 

[Andrew]

[quote author=hookedtrout link=board=1;threadid=1507;start=30#msg9019 date=1111940908]
[quote author=Andrew link=board=1;threadid=1507;start=30#msg9018 date=1111939646]
Well said my friend. From "California Corral" until the new book, Paul has carried us with his knowkedge. And to think I bought the car to travel to college in.
[/quote]

I had a little different plan when I bought mine and it served it's purpose well. My Special was actually my second Mustang. My first car purchased at the young age of 14 was a 65 Mustang sold originally at John E Nois Ford somewhere in California, I bought it in San Clemente, California and still have the black plates from that car somewhere. I was the second owner of that car. I've had Mustang running in my veins for many a year and giving the girls a ride in my Mustang was the highlight of it all. I still give the girls a ride only now the girls are my Wife and my daughter. ;D

Hook
[/quote]
My plan was to replace the 68 Sprint that was my first car bought in 1983. I regretted it so much, I saved up to buy another 68 but swore in would not come from the Northeast, the GT/CS showed up in 1987 and was worth the wait. No one coudl understand why I bought a car that could only be used 6-7 months out of the year but I was willing to walk in the winters. Sometimes I can't believe I had not sold this car over the years

 

[admin]

My $.02

I think the new Registry book should be put together much the same as the previous ones. I don't think Paul should exclude cars whos owners have not "proven" them to be authentic. He won't even be able to get in touch with everyone who has submitted a car, even if he wanted to.

Adding an extra column to show those that have submitted that info is a great idea and I think should satisfy those that want to see only "authenticated" cars.

The Registry has been created and is maintained for all enthusiasts, but it doesn't belong to us. It belongs to Paul. He's who put all the time, research and effort into producing it and he's who maintains it. Ultimately it's his decision on how to format and present the info in his books.

 

[PNewitt]

Here is the bottom line.

I would love to send a letter with all my VINs to Marti, and say: "authenticate these GT/CS cars for my next book".

That would cost me something like 800 x $4, or more. or $3K or more--at least. And as new cars show up, am I supposed to keep doing this at my own expense?

The "proof" lies with the owner. We don't have access to a Shelby paperwork like SAAC, and there is NO specific letter or number in the VIN or Door tag saying "GT/CS", like a Boss or Mach 1.

I'll do my best to do "something" for the purists in the registry, but I'm not going to go out of my way to satisfy anyone in particular--when this is something owners should deal with individually (if they choose to do so), and there are outside ways of seeking this type of information.

Paul.

 

[hookedtrout]

[quote/]


I would guess that if you polled the members, the majority of registry owners would want only authentic cars in the registry, if not then say its open to all cars. I will start a thread and see how it goes.

Steve K.


Steve, in all honesty do you really care whether my car is authentic or not, really, deep down what does MY CAR mean to you?

Other than the friendship that we have the potential to develop here because we own like cars I don't think my car does or should mean anything to you.

I've purchased each of Pauls books and I've spent countless hours looking at the pictures and reading the list of cars in the books and not once did I question anyone's honesty on putting their car in the book. Each and every thought I had was good, I looked and read about the cars that needed restored and dreamed of the fun they would have and the time that it offered them to spend with their family or kids on the project, I read about the concours type cars and dreamed about the possibility that when my nose quit running that I might take my car to that level, the book offered me a lot of dreams and I hope it offers others the same.

Again I will support Pauls decision first and if his decision is to go with a majority and the majority wants the list to be some elitist group then I will respect that and kindly accept that I won't be on the list, not because I think someone is wrong and I'm right simply because it isn't what it's all about to me. I'll still buy one of Pauls books and add to my collection for the information aspect but there will probably be a lot less dreaming going on when I get to the list of cars and read through it.

P.S. I'll refrain from casting my vote on any polls on the topic, you know where I stand. This book is Pauls dream and he made the dream come true, it has nothing to do with anything I might try to dictate.

Hook