1968 Cali Special Poss Engine Replacement - Questions?

[rvrtrash]

I'd transplant a 3.7L Infiniti engine, and while I was at it I'd install some Corvette flush door handles on the tops of the doors.

Does Dynacorn produce coupes?

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Steve

 

[joedls]

Define "good".

If maximum horsepower and go-fast is all you care about and want good handling buy a FD series RX-7. Bang for buck will leave any Mustang in the dust. or buy a dynacron shell and have at it.

If keeping it a 68 GT/CS means anything then date correct is "good".

To me as a restomod, just another one, you can put a "better" engine in a Shelby, but would you?

To each thier own.

But what if you like the style of the GT/CS and still want to go fast? What's wrong with that? I have no problem with someone that wants to keep their car correct. In fact, I admire those cars and those owners immensely. It just isn't for me. Why are you so intolerant of others' choices? I can assure you, my car was never just another restomod to me. If that's the way you view it, that's your issue.

I wouldn't put a different engine in a Shelby because the only reason I would own a Shelby would be as a collectible, hoping that it would someday increase in value. That isn't why I own a GT/CS. I own it because I love the style of the car and I love driving it. That RX-7 could never compare to the feeling I get when I drive my GT/CS.

 

[p51]

Re: "I plan on keeping this car for the rest of my life..."

In this case I'd say don't worry about the resale value. Do what ever makes you the happiest since you're not going to be selling it... ever... :smile:

Personally, I want my GT/CS to "look 1968 but drive 2008" so I've mod'ed it with a 5-speed transmission, front disc brakes, headrests, new suspension, efi, etc. Its really starting to feel like a modern car in almost all ways.

One change I'd strongly advise, especially if your putting in a high-hp engine, is front disc brakes (if you don't already have them). High hp/speed and drum brakes is a recipe for disaster. And note, even though you might know your stopping distance w/drum brakes is much farther than modern-day cars, other people on the road don't know that - ever been cutoff in traffic?

 

[nfrntau]

If the engine isn't numbers-matching does it being period correct really do any good?

Brandon, for the amount of money you're spending have you considered installing a Ford Racing crate motor?
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=11752

+1, Warranty, built to last, all parts built to work together. Various sizes and HP and they'll ship it right to your doorstep.

If I had to do mine over again, I would go the crate motor route. Just make sure you stay with a reputable supplier/brand

 

[robert campbell]

Brandon,
Don't listen to me!! I will lead you down the dark side of performance!!

I have personnal been around the 306 crate motor from Ford in Arlies link. It is a great foundation and has a very nasty cam sound. I loved its sound. Here is one with a dual quad from Edelbrock in chrome finish. It got 19 miles to the gallon on a recent trip. Electric choke and totally driveable with a huge wow factor for $1300 bucks!!

By the way, build what you want!! Resale value is over rated!! Just kidding, but heck you only go around once in life!!

Rob

 

[rvrtrash]

Thank you Joe and Rob! That's what I was waiting for.

Steve

 

[joedls]

Thank you Joe and Rob! That's what I was waiting for.

Steve

Anytime Pop!!

 

[robert campbell]

Brandon,
Now that we have scared you to death. Lets recap!

You have a nice aluminum intake.
You have an Edelbrock Carb. Carb number is on the front right hand corner. More than likely a part # 1406 600 CFM
You seem ok with headers.
You do not have a numbers match engine.

So I think you have a few choices. If the current block can clean up at .030 or .040 then it can be used. Have it sona rayed for core shift. Or throw in the corner and get a later model block that will support a roller cam. Standard bore condition. You can put your timing cover on and retain the stock water pump.

Rotating assembly. Key to future fun. Stock crank and rods are ok to about 350/375 rear wheel horse power. I would go with hyperkinetic or forged pistons. Now you can stroke either block to 363 cubic inches. These kits will come with premium connecting rods and crank. A step up the ole wallet. But then you have a great foundation for up to 500 hp before you break you block in half. David Thanes has personal experience.

Heads. To go much over 300 hp with your engine you need better heads. You can port stock iron heads or go to aftermarket aluminum. Either work great. Aluminum can help you with a step up in compression. Yes, you can run a 10 to 1 motor on today’s pump gas. All about tuning.

If you have a known trusted engine builder, he can build this for you. Cam to meet your desired HP. The newer blocks are cheaper for a hydraulic roller cam installation and there is a great selection. We can discuss engine dampers and flywheels later.

Or you can buy a complete motor from Ford or other trusted sources with a warranty. The beauty of a strong foundation is you can use your carb and intake and upgrade later for more power. Just has to be tuned properly. Use you 4 speed for now. Upgrade to a five speed later as a bolt on. Slap on EFI, 8 stack injection, nitrous, or a blower. Or just a dual quad.

Or as stated earlier you can get somewhere in between for less money. You get to choose!!

Rob

 

[brandosme]

Brandon,
Now that we have scared you to death. Lets recap!

You have a nice aluminum intake.
You have an Edelbrock Carb. Carb number is on the front right hand corner. More than likely a part # 1406 600 CFM
You seem ok with headers.
You do not have a numbers match engine.

So I think you have a few choices. If the current block can clean up at .030 or .040 then it can be used. Have it sona rayed for core shift. Or throw in the corner and get a later model block that will support a roller cam. Standard bore condition. You can put your timing cover on and retain the stock water pump.

Rotating assembly. Key to future fun. Stock crank and rods are ok to about 350/375 rear wheel horse power. I would go with hyperkinetic or forged pistons. Now you can stroke either block to 363 cubic inches. These kits will come with premium connecting rods and crank. A step up the ole wallet. But then you have a great foundation for up to 500 hp before you break you block in half. David Thanes has personal experience.

Heads. To go much over 300 hp with your engine you need better heads. You can port stock iron heads or go to aftermarket aluminum. Either work great. Aluminum can help you with a step up in compression. Yes, you can run a 10 to 1 motor on today’s pump gas. All about tuning.

If you have a known trusted engine builder, he can build this for you. Cam to meet your desired HP. The newer blocks are cheaper for a hydraulic roller cam installation and there is a great selection. We can discuss engine dampers and flywheels later.

Or you can buy a complete motor from Ford or other trusted sources with a warranty. The beauty of a strong foundation is you can use your carb and intake and upgrade later for more power. Just has to be tuned properly. Use you 4 speed for now. Upgrade to a five speed later as a bolt on. Slap on EFI, 8 stack injection, nitrous, or a blower. Or just a dual quad.

Or as stated earlier you can get somewhere in between for less money. You get to choose!!

Rob

Alright I finally heard back from my mechanic buddy and of course all of your guy's great posts - now - as if I wasn't confused with so many great options, I have a few more to weight.

He ran down a list of parts he would recommend replacing during the conversion. He changed his tune on the 1991 5.0 and advised me to start with the crate Ford Racing Motor (orginally proposed by Mosesatm). The list of things he wanted to change was so long and seemed pricey, and by the end of it my head was spinning a little bit. His estimate to do it right --> around $8K (more based on my math). And at that token there's ways to do it even better, which would run the price up from there. And it would now be a restomod, which may or may not hurt the value and whatnot (jury's out). So, instead of opening a can of worms and blowing a hole in my bank account, I think I might try to repair the old block and try a mix-and-match method suggested by Rob. But regardless, here are my options.

Option # 1 - approx $8k he says - Restomod
(all prices are approximate numbers jotted down while on the phone)
Buy a ford crate engine 306 approx -$3,800 + tax
Intake/Carb - Edelbrock $300 OR Holley $600+ fuel line conversion?
Edelbrock Performance RPM Air Gap - $190
Aluminum Water Pump - $149
High Output alternator - $340
Pulleys / Accessories - $200
Transmission rebuilt T-5 Bell Housing Fork - $950
Clutch - Luke - $400
Conversion Parts and clutch cable etc. - $500
Performance starter - $200
Modify Drive shaft Yokes U-Joints - $175
MSD Ignition - $550 Something about a box makes this worthwhile?
Headers Hookers - $300
New Exhaust Flowmasters - $450
Aluminum Radiator - $400
Miscellaneous parts - $200
Labor & Installation $1,500
With my math roughly - $10-11K. IMO not worth it based on my net worth.

Option #2 - Repair Current Engine Headgaskets & Tune up - $900
Valve Job
Resurface Headers
head gaskets
intake gasket
oil filter
spark plugs
carb gasket
fluids, oils, etc.
Good price? Gamble? More problems in a few months/weeks?

Option #3 Rebuilt entire current engine - $2,100
Rebuilt top half and bottom half. Engine smoking for about a year leading up to the fateful day the head gaskets blew got me worrying, and I think it might need a rebuild.

Option #4 - Rebuild current engine and add headers maybe even exhaust - $2,100 + $300 headers + $450 exhaust = $2,850
This option will increase horsepower by 25 hp and torque by about 20

Ok with these options, what do you guys think is best? I would now be leaning toward the Options 2-4 since I would get to keep the more original look and not break my bank at the moment.

Secondly, does anybody know who does good work in Southern California that could possibly have better ideas?

 

[brandosme]

Brandon,

So I think you have a few choices. If the current block can clean up at .030 or .040 then it can be used. Have it sona rayed for core shift. Or throw in the corner and get a later model block that will support a roller cam. Standard bore condition. You can put your timing cover on and retain the stock water pump.

Rob

I am curious about this part. What are we looking at price-wise on doing this to the current engine?

 

[dalorzo_f]

But what if you like the style of the GT/CS and still want to go fast?

That's too easy, buy a dime-a-dozen '68 coupe shell, (or even a 67, the scoops hide the biggest difference and many delete the fender markers anyway) a few grand in Branda fiberglass and have at it... why restomod a-one-of-a-very few cars? As noted, would you restomod a Shelby??? (sadly, I know of two owners here in Oz who converted orignal 67 and 68 Shelby's to right hand drive..... why??????)

I'd bet you could sell it for more than a running coupe and the fibergass and then put the rest towards a restomod... a J code 4 speed is a very desireable car to the right buyer... would you do the same to a 428 GT/CS? If not, why the difference? If so, that's just sad, to me.... :wink:

 

[p51]

Since the engine you currently have is not original...

...IMO, I would do the following. If the out-the-door cost of the rebuild vs adding the Ford racing crate engine is $2100 vs $3800 (is it?), then I would go with the crate engine. The idea being, new engine, more hp (more fun?), and if you like it you're on your way to later doing other upgrades like the T5. One note, if you go to a T5 transmission its likely that you'll also want to get a new differential (if its currently a 3:00) as well... it starts to add up...

And once again (beating a dead horse here), if you have drum brakes you should strongly consider adding front disc brakes. It is the single best thing you can do for safety...

 

[dalorzo_f]

I'll have to disagree on the drums. The single best thing you can do for safety is... drive slower.

I've been driving a drum GT/CS regularly, I was worried when I bought it because of posts like this...

But....they stop as well as my discs for average around-town driving. The pedal feel is way different, the power discs take less effort, and a lot of folks equate that to "better" braking.

But it is not hard to press the manual drum pedal enough to stop and it locks 'em up if you stomp on it just as well as the discs... it is casual around-town driving, if you are in a hilly area or want to jack-rabbit, the drums will fade...

And there is proven cause/effect data to show the "safer" people feel in their cars, the worse and more dangerous they drive... "I have great brakes/airbags/crumple zones/etc so can drive faster and pay less attention" ... short articles on it here...

http://www.articlesnatch.com/Article/Safe-Vehicles--Safer-Passengers--/3510818

http://news.softpedia.com/newsPDF/Safer-Cars-Result-in-More-Accidents-54476.pdf

Numerous similar studies have shown "safer" systems lead to more risky behavior... and the end result is moot....

 

[joedls]

That's too easy, buy a dime-a-dozen '68 coupe shell, (or even a 67, the scoops hide the biggest difference and many delete the fender markers anyway) a few grand in Branda fiberglass and have at it... why restomod a-one-of-a-very few cars?

How is buying a coupe, buying the GT/CS specific parts, installing them on the car, then painting everything "too easy"? The path I took is much easier. I bought an inexpensive GT/CS and upgraded it the way I wanted it.

As noted, would you restomod a Shelby???

I already answered this question and gave the reason why I would not. But the GT/CS does not have the same collector value that a Shelby does. So you're talking apples and oranges here.

I'd bet you could sell it for more than a running coupe and the fibergass and then put the rest towards a restomod...

I don't really care about the resale value of my car. To me, it isn't a financial investment. It's an investment in fun.

a J code 4 speed is a very desireable car to the right buyer... would you do the same to a 428 GT/CS? If not, why the difference? If so, that's just sad, to me.... :wink:

Apples and oranges again. Although the J code is more desirable to some, the real collector value is in big block cars. Most muscle car collectors are not looking for J code cars.




But the beauty of this hobby is that there's room for all kinds of enthusiasts. The purists, the hotrodders, the racers, the Sunday cruisers should all be included, IMHO. But if we start looking down on people's cars and describe them as "just another restomod" instead of appreciating the work that they've put into their cars, we'll drive many enthusiasts away. Do we really want to do that?

I have a funny story I'd like to share. I had two of my "restomods" parked in my driveway and someone stopped as they were driving by and knocked on my door. He said he wanted to purchase one of the cars. He appreciated some of the modifications I had made, but didn't like some. I understand that. Not everyone has the same taste. But he was pretty rude, in my opinion, so I gave him a taste of his own medicine. When he asked me why I had chosen the wheels that I had on the car. He made it clear that he didn't like them and thought that a more period correct wheel should be used. I said, "I don't know. Can you tell me why you chose that ugly shirt you chose to wear today?" He quickly got in his truck and left. I chuckled as he left.

This is the car with the wheels he didn't like.

 

[p51]

I'll have to disagree on the drums. The single best thing you can do for safety is... drive slower.

I've been driving a drum GT/CS regularly, I was worried when I bought it because of posts like this...

But....they stop as well as my discs for average around-town driving. The pedal feel is way different, the power discs take less effort, and a lot of folks equate that to "better" braking.

But it is not hard to press the manual drum pedal enough to stop and it locks 'em up if you stomp on it just as well as the discs... it is casual around-town driving, if you are in a hilly area or want to jack-rabbit, the drums will fade...

And there is proven cause/effect data to show the "safer" people feel in their cars, the worse and more dangerous they drive... "I have great brakes/airbags/crumple zones/etc so can drive faster and pay less attention" ... short articles on it here...

http://www.articlesnatch.com/Article/Safe-Vehicles--Safer-Passengers--/3510818

http://news.softpedia.com/newsPDF/Safer-Cars-Result-in-More-Accidents-54476.pdf

Numerous similar studies have shown "safer" systems lead to more risky behavior... and the end result is moot....

Yep. I've read the same thing about other safety features as well. For example, safety belts, head rests, and, even car insurance attribute to more aggressive driving and, hence, to somewhat lower safety. Its clearly a tradeoff...

But what really sold me on disc brakes was not how I drive - I can compensate for the longer stopping distance - its how other people drive and specifically how they drive modern-day cars (remember they have all these new safety features leading them to drive more aggressively). Imagine some fellow who has driven a modern-day BMW (or even civic) his whole life cutting you off while driving on the highway and then slamming on *his* disc brakes with *his* implicit assumption that you can stop as fast as he can. :sad:

 

[brandosme]

I installed disc brakes a few years back to replace the drums. I don't have power disc breaks though, you still have to press the pedal pretty hard. I noticed a more consistent slowing/stopping with the discs. It felt like the drum brakes had a tendency to pull in one direction or the other when I was slowing suddenly.

I have driven the car for 9 years and it was my first car when I was 16 years old. I made it this far without incident and I dont race the car. I just love the way it looks and sounds and the feeling I get driving it.

Any input on the engine? I dont its an option to swap the Ford Crate Racing engine for the current 302 without having to do major conversion modifications.

Thanks - I might tow the car down to the shop on Saturday. I was also thinking about installing a new radiator to protect the engine. Any suggestions?

Brandon

 

[rvrtrash]

This is the car with the wheels he didn't like.

Joe, there's something I don't like about the car as well. It doesn't have Idaho plates and it's not parked in my driveway! :grin:

"Dad"

 

[dalorzo_f]

To use the BMW analogy, unless you buy a BMW your Stang ain't going to stop as fast as it. Period. Its an "I might get hit by a meteor" rationale... the BMW driver better upgrade because a Veyron or F1 "may" cut him off... :wink:

Drove a drum S code in the Bay Area (and far beyond) for 10 years daily, never a problem. But it was pretty staid with wide open roads, no traffic, and no agressive "BMW drivers" cutting you off... :wink:

If you bought a J/4 speed cheap, good for you! Do whatever you want, I just think a one-of-200 car going the way of a one-of -92,000 6 banger is... sad.

Your money your car. Just offering an opinion.

On the engine you should be able to buy a crate that bolts right in... maybe not from Ford Racing, never looked at them as I stick pretty close to stock (surprise!).

There are a lot of options out there from many reputable builders that will make something to fit such a common request. Unless you want the exotic there should be no major issues to get a new upgraded engine. If you go EFI some issues with fuel delivery, but no need for major overhauls and structual work (shock towers, etc) unless that is what you want... should be dozens of simple bolt-in options available.

 

[robert campbell]

I am curious about this part. What are we looking at price-wise on doing this to the current engine?

This is for option 3 or 4. Get the heads off and clean up the top of a piston. If has a stamp such as .020, .030, or .040 then it is has been rebuilt before and already bored a bit. That does not mean it is still not ok.

Rob

 

[robert campbell]

Alright I finally heard back from my mechanic buddy and of course all of your guy's great posts - now - as if I wasn't confused with so many great options, I have a few more to weight.

He ran down a list of parts he would recommend replacing during the conversion. He changed his tune on the 1991 5.0 and advised me to start with the crate Ford Racing Motor (orginally proposed by Mosesatm). The list of things he wanted to change was so long and seemed pricey, and by the end of it my head was spinning a little bit. His estimate to do it right --> around $8K (more based on my math). And at that token there's ways to do it even better, which would run the price up from there. And it would now be a restomod, which may or may not hurt the value and whatnot (jury's out). So, instead of opening a can of worms and blowing a hole in my bank account, I think I might try to repair the old block and try a mix-and-match method suggested by Rob. But regardless, here are my options.

Option # 1 - approx $8k he says - Restomod
(all prices are approximate numbers jotted down while on the phone)
Buy a ford crate engine 306 approx -$3,800 + tax
Intake/Carb - Edelbrock $300 OR Holley $600+ fuel line conversion?
Edelbrock Performance RPM Air Gap - $190
Aluminum Water Pump - $149
High Output alternator - $340
Pulleys / Accessories - $200
Transmission rebuilt T-5 Bell Housing Fork - $950
Clutch - Luke - $400
Conversion Parts and clutch cable etc. - $500
Performance starter - $200
Modify Drive shaft Yokes U-Joints - $175
MSD Ignition - $550 Something about a box makes this worthwhile?
Headers Hookers - $300
New Exhaust Flowmasters - $450
Aluminum Radiator - $400
Miscellaneous parts - $200
Labor & Installation $1,500
With my math roughly - $10-11K. IMO not worth it based on my net worth.

Option #2 - Repair Current Engine Headgaskets & Tune up - $900
Valve Job
Resurface Headers
head gaskets
intake gasket
oil filter
spark plugs
carb gasket
fluids, oils, etc.
Good price? Gamble? More problems in a few months/weeks?

Option #3 Rebuilt entire current engine - $2,100
Rebuilt top half and bottom half. Engine smoking for about a year leading up to the fateful day the head gaskets blew got me worrying, and I think it might need a rebuild.

Option #4 - Rebuild current engine and add headers maybe even exhaust - $2,100 + $300 headers + $450 exhaust = $2,850
This option will increase horsepower by 25 hp and torque by about 20

Ok with these options, what do you guys think is best? I would now be leaning toward the Options 2-4 since I would get to keep the more original look and not break my bank at the moment.

Secondly, does anybody know who does good work in Southern California that could possibly have better ideas?

Brandon,
Option 2 is still a consideration. If after you get the heads off and clean up the top of a couple pistons you may discover that it has never been rebuilt you may be golden. I see this all the time. If the motor still runs decent oil pressure and does not have any huge knocking noises, option 2 can be just fine. There is an old wives tail that if you rebuild the top end the bottom end will blow out soon. Not so, with the caveat that you are not a racer and plan on beating on this motor.

Smoke from a 302 is normally exhaust valve guide and seal related. Take your heads down and have them disassembled. You need to observe this. In long miles untouched 302’s the exhaust stem seal may be completely gone. And all the rest will be brittle as heck. If this is the case with your heads, a valve job and stem seal replacement will more than likely stop 90 percent of the smoke. Quick question, is the smoke most noticeable after you get it hot, go in a store for 10 or 15 minutes and when you start it, you see a whole bunch? That is a sure sign of bad exhaust stem seals leaking oil into the combustion chamber.

I just did a stem seal job in the car with the heads on for a 1968 J Code Fastback. Cured the smoke and the seals were pathetically brittle and some completed gone.

We had another member on the site that severely overheated a motor, blew the head gaskets, and it still survived and runs well. Will it go another 100,000 miles? No! Will it give someone years of seldom driving and cruise nights. Yes!

It would be great if you had a friend or you are capable of removing the heads yourself. This will tell you a lot about the motor. We can talk about cylinder bore inspection and such. If it is trash, then you have it towed to your shop.

I think you can get years of enjoyment while you save $10k for a complete transformation. And five speeds, headers, and lower rear end gears can be added to this engine and still be right in line for the engine of your dreams. The headers will be for a 302 block height only, so if you decide for a 351 engine base build they would need to be changed. But that is peanuts in the grand scheme.

Rob