1968 Dash VIN tag

[x-codegtcs]

Does anyone know of a dash VIN tag supplier? Mine is corroded beyond recognition. I know that Kevin Marti does door tags, but could not find a dash VIN tag...Thanks!

 

[BigJim]

Not sure if its legal to just stamp one out. Check with your DMV, there are laws about removing and attaching VIN tags.

 

[gscott]

Vin Tag Decal

Try getting a Vin Tag Decal. It's a border decal and looks like the origional Ford tag and goes around your origional stamped #'s. I believe NPD sells them. gary

 

[somethingspecial]

If you go through your states DMV, you will no longer have the same VIN, which is important to your car. They will issue a new VIN (different) and affix it to the car via pop rivots. At least that is what California DMV, via California Highway Patrol does. They don't care about originality. Try not to do this. Once you open that can of worms, it can flag your VIN for close scrutiny. Nothing says you can't at least check with them to see what your options are, just don't reveal the VIN.

There must be some way to fix this problem. Have you cleaned the corrosion off the tag yet, and if so, can you still read the VIN? If so, get the decal mentioned above and see how it looks.

Sometimes during restorations, it is necessary to remove the dash VIN tag, then re-install it later. They are held with standard pop rivots, therefor, it should be easy to reproduce the VIN tag with aluminum sheet and a good engraver. Check with your local trophy shop, they should be able to do the work you need. It is up to you to decide what may or may not be ethical or legal. Just saying. I am Pro keeping it ethical and legal, but there are some things that border on illegal and/or the right thing to do. If you do make a new one and install it, keep the original safe, and photo the stamped vin under the fender to confirm it matches. Just keep in mind there is no forgiveness when it comes to Vehicle Fraud or VIN switch (swapping one VIN from a clean car to another better car) and it is a Felony. JMHO.

 

[franklinair]

IIRC Kevin Marti USED to make new VIN tags, but legal issues may have killed that ability. He required proof of ownership (title), a rub of the fender stamping, and possibly the old VIN tag. It would be well worth a phone call to find out.
As Mike pointed out, it would be best to retain the original VIN tag regardless of 'readability'.

Neil

 

[BigJim]

Unless Ford did something different then other manufactures VIN tag rivets are a special type of rivet. Owning these rivets is against the law unless you are licensed to have them. There are experts out there (both in the LEO and collector car communities) that can identify VIN tags that have been removed and reattached. Having a LEO spot a reattached VIN tag be it at a show or traffic stop can result in your car being impounded and your having to have an up close and personal experience with the court system.

BTW some states will allow you to attached a repo VIN tag if your original tag is damaged or rusted beyond a certain point. More then likely they will require the vehicle to be inspected by DMV, Secretary of State or state police personnel. In some states a state cop will come out and actually attach the VIN tag for you.

Messing with VIN tags is a federal offense and is not taken lightly by any level of law enforcement. Then again as they say, its your car, do what you want with it.

 

[dalorzo_f]

The rivet issue is a red herring, pop rivets are fine, no one willl call you on it at a DMV (if they remove your dash pad to l ook).

Check these guys out, they will reproduce, and if a corroded original is replaced no fraud or intent to decieve is in play so the technical (and never ending) debate about his type of repalcement is moot...

http://www.datatags.com/

They are not cheap. Last time I checked IIRC it was $300 for one. If you really want it, pay them, pop rivet it in, and it will never be an issue again.

The decal is an outline and will do nothing to make corroded and unreadable numbers better...and look terrrible over corroded/pitted metal as it will not lay flat... and look like a decal... :smile:

 

[x-codegtcs]

Thanks guys for all your input. Since I am not trying to hide anything, but if the cops show up at my door - I'll know who to blame 8-D Anyway, the VIN tag has been AWOL since I have owned the car. It was similar to the CA deal where a special vin had been added to the car. HOWEVER, when I bought it, I petitioned the state and they sent a state trooper to inspect the car and approve or deny the petition. They agreed and reverted title to the original VIN. I have a copy of the previous title showing the state issued VIN and the current title is now in the original VIN so I am trying to find a plate. I did all of the retitling process before I did any work on the car. Also, the front clip was replaced when the car was removed from the Bronco frame, and the aprons replaced due to rust, so no VIN's were present. The body shop re-stamped the VIN's in the aprons for restoration purposes and they are not visible when the fenders are on. I have contacted Kevin Marti. He still does it, but is obviously selective on the project. I had to send an email with details. No response yet. I will try the link for Datatags.

As for the special rivets, I have seen two different attachement methods for cars out of SJ. My first car was a 68 cougar for SJ. When I restored it in 91, the vin tag was attached by two black screws - similar to the ones that hold the door weather strip channel up. This car was the most original, untouched cars that I had ever owned including air cleaner, carb, hood insulation, etc. I guess it could have been messed with, but seemed highly unlikely to me. Anyone else see this? All others I have seen used the aluminum pop rivets. They have all been pretty corroded beyond recognition, so I am not sure if there was anything special about the design.

Anyway, I would certainly not do this as a way to deceive, and agree that there are many out there that would, so I just want to be sure to do it by the book and keep it all out in the open and above water to prevent any kind of pretense. I guess I need to get some detailed date code stamping photos while I still have the car apart, just to help link it all together.

 

[BigJim]

For your reading pleasure... http://www.boss302.com/legal.htm

 

[x-codegtcs]

Jim - very interesting. It is interesting reading. I will definitely need to clarify with the state about this as I was under the impression that since they approved and re-titled the car with the original VIN that all was well. Maybe not.

It does seem that most of the writings are cars with removed (I read as "still missing/not present") or altered VINs - because if this isn't the case, then most restored Mustangs and other classic cars and trucks out there are being sold illegally since the VIN tag and other factory markings (AKA fender stampings) have been unofficially removed and then replaced at one point during a restoration or accident repair. Really, this would apply to all 68 and newer cars (that have VIN's stamped on the engine and tranny) with replacement motors and transmissions since these are factory labeled parts. Seems like we are all dealing in some kind of gray area at that point.

Anyway, I will definitely need to call the DMV and ask about this situation.

 

[dalorzo_f]

" SUMMARY: Illegally removing or altering a vehicle identification number (VIN) or selling or possessing a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN constitutes a crime in most states. In order to impose liability, state courts normally require a culpable mental state on the part of the defendant in altering or removing a VIN or in possessing a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN. "

Nothing to do with honestly replacing the original with no intent to defruad. For older cars replacing the tag with a repro, as Tags Backeast (and others) do is fine. Marti used to do it until one bozo used one to fake a high end car (which is illegal) I did it before he stopped (cheaper than TBE) on a 68 S GT I have.

If it was such an issue I am unsure how TBE (and Marti when they did it for years) would have stayed in business so long while openly advertising the "federal offense" on the web... :smile:

A knee jerk issue that always causes a big kefuffle. Keep the original as proof with the car, buy a repro to match, pop rivet it on, done.

 

[BigJim]

Checked with our state dmv and police. A authorized state policeman must come out, remove the old tag, affix the new tag and sign the appropriate paperwork. Private parties are not allowed to remove or affix a VIN tag period. It has to be done by a state leo. It does not matter the reason for removing or affixing the tag either. I asked how I would replace a rusted out dash. I was told the cop would come out, inspect the old dash, remove the tag, watch me install the new dash and then install the tag on the new dash. The law may be different in your state.

 

[x-codegtcs]

Richard and Tim,

Thanks again for the info and insights. I still think that there is a lot of "uneducated" VIN removal going on in the resto world - doesn't make it legal, but the burden on state police seems like it would be pretty big if they watched every rusty dash get replaced or fender apron get replaced and have the VIN welded back in. It seems like the people on the phone are always less practical than those that are on the streets.

Anyway, I just got off the phone with the DMV. They told me that as far as the current car goes and it's title, it is considered legitimate and legal. WHEW! As for a new VIN tag they require a state police to attach the new VIN tag. SO - just to be legal, when I get a new tag, I will call the troopers to come out and attach! Done and done. Then all potential issues are resolved.

Thanks again - and I am glad I made the call.

 

[CougarCJ]

Did they say anything about requiring visible proof of a VIN stamp on the apron, if the tag is missing or illegible?

 

[BigJim]

I agree its a waste of police resources to have state troopers handle the VIN tags. But I understand the logic behind it and if it helps catch car thieves and return stolen cars to their rightful owner then maybe its not such a waste of time after all.

 

[x-codegtcs]

Jim - I totally agree. Unfortunately, the criminals always find a way and the rest of us are left holding the bag. I have no problem going through the hassle though, I have no interest in being sued or tossed in jail because I was too careless. And in this car's case, if I didn't know the history personally, I wouldn't have bought it with a state issued VIN.

Scott - nothing about the VIN on the apron being mandatory. All the different state documents refer to 5 basic modalities for proper VIN ID - Frame, Dash Tag, Body Left/Right, Trunk or Engine. This last one leaves me wondering about all the unsuspecting engine swaps that happen over the years without police supervision...

There is an "OTHER" field, as well, where the peace officer writes in where it was verified. My understanding from my experience and also with the Cougar I recently parted out was that one VIN location is enough evidence and that they check the door tag even if the window vin is visible. I also had other documentation, but they didn't need it. Originally, the reason the VIN on this car was changed to a state issued VIN was due to the Bronco frame having it's own VIN and the GT/CS having a VIN. So rather than hold two titles/registrations/etc., the previous owner who did the 4X4 conversion surrendered both titles in lieu of the state issued VIN and replacement title. When I bought the car and petitioned for re-issuance of the title under the original VIN, I provided the history of why it was changed and photos that the car was no longer on the Bronco frame. They then sent an officer for inspection and approval. Lots of paperwork, but relatively painless (no court dates, no jail time LOL ;-D).

 

[CougarCJ]

Scott - nothing about the VIN on the apron being mandatory. All the different state documents refer to 5 basic modalities for proper VIN ID - Frame, Dash Tag, Body Left/Right, Trunk or Engine. This last one leaves me wondering about all the unsuspecting engine swaps that happen over the years without police supervision...

There is an "OTHER" field, as well, where the peace officer writes in where it was verified. My understanding from my experience and also with the Cougar I recently parted out was that one VIN location is enough evidence and that they check the door tag even if the window vin is visible. I also had other documentation, but they didn't need it. Originally, the reason the VIN on this car was changed to a state issued VIN was due to the Bronco frame having it's own VIN and the GT/CS having a VIN. So rather than hold two titles/registrations/etc., the previous owner who did the 4X4 conversion surrendered both titles in lieu of the state issued VIN and replacement title. When I bought the car and petitioned for re-issuance of the title under the original VIN, I provided the history of why it was changed and photos that the car was no longer on the Bronco frame. They then sent an officer for inspection and approval. Lots of paperwork, but relatively painless (no court dates, no jail time LOL ;-D).

I would consider the VIN stamp on the apron as a 'frame stamp' for a Mustang.

Early Bronco? I have a friend who had one of those. The VIN tag is riveted to the glove box door. What were they thinking?

 

[x-codegtcs]

I would consider the VIN stamp on the apron as a 'frame stamp' for a Mustang.

Early Bronco? I have a friend who had one of those. The VIN tag is riveted to the glove box door. What were they thinking?

I agree that it would be either the frame or maybe the "L/R" body VIN. I think it was an early Bronco frame. It got lots of looks that's for sure. It was back when you could buy a nice GT/CS for $1000. But really to mess up two very cool old Ford's was not very cool at all!