Engine Repair Question

[Mosesatm]

Casey, I've been out of town all week, again, and haven't done anything else to it. This weekend I'm going to put it on jack stands and run it. That way I should at least be able to tell if the noise is coming from the front or rear of the engine.

I was also hoping to take it to a few more mechanics on Saturday but it's going to be 75 here so golf may just win out over car repairs!

 

[Mosesatm]

Put it up on stands and ran it. I swear the sound is coming out of both the front and the rear of the engine.

Dropped the pan and poked, prodded, & jiggled everything. Everything looks and feels good. All the skirts are present, the thrust bearing looks fine (yes ladies there really is such a thing, it's not just a pick-up line), the cylinders are not scored, the timing chain is not hitting anything.

Buttoned it back up no closer to a solution than when I started. When I removed the starter I found the date code so the evening wasn't a complete waste time. It's a late '65 block.

My next task is to take it to a transmission shop to see if the torque converter is even a possibility.

Hey, I know what I should do. Maybe I should take the pan off again and run the engine so I can actually see the parts moving. That should make it easy to tell where the noise is coming from!!!!

Could a bad harmonic balancer create a weird rolling/knocking diesel-type noise?

 

[PNewitt]

For what it's worth, there are folks out there with a '65 or '66 concours project that would pay dearly for that ('65 date coded) 289 block. I was told this many years ago, because the 302 blocks have flooded the rebuild market. It's even more difficult to find a 260.

If it isn't the original block, you should just get a crate engine, and/or a stroker, and a perf C-4, and be done with it.

All things considered, life is too short to not have fun with your CS, and the looks of the car tend to "demand" it's performance out on the road.

If you can figure out how to do this economically, I say go for it. Yank the whole works out of there, and get new. It would help resale value, too (not that you'd want to sell it).

Just my two bits at this juncture of the problem. Still---I'll be curious what the trans shop tells you. Keep up posted.

Paul N.

 

[Perkchiro]

Arlie, Just a thought I had for you from my experience. When I first started up my engine after the rebuild, I had a noisy metal clang at idle that would go away with acceleration and increased RPM's. I could not locate the problem at all, so I decided to pull the engine and partially dismantle it. I disconnected the transmission and found the problem. I had failed to properly torque the bolts on the flex plate and it worked lose and was hitting the studs on the torque converter. It ruined the flex plate and torque converter. I replaced those and properly torqued the flex plate nuts and that cured the problem. I just thought I'd throw that out there for your consideration. Hope you find that problem and get it solved soon!!

 

[Mosesatm]

Sorry, Casey, I never did completely answer your question.

The engine runs great. It just sounds like an F250 diesel at idle.

The noise stays fairly constant whether it's in drive, park, or neutral and from what I've read on the internet that should rule out most possible torque converter problems.

The noise either goes away as the engine RPMs increase or I just can’t hear it over the fan.

And since I'm too stubborn to give up I'm not going to buy a long-block until I figure out what is making that blasted noise!!!!!!!! That means Sunday (Saturday is golf) will be spent removing and re-installing the timing chain and gears, and testing everything in that part of the engine. With the timing chain removed I should be able to check for play in the front main bearing, and the thrust bearing.

To answer the question most of you are thinking but are to polite to ask; Yes, the smart way to do this would be to pull the engine and put it on a stand, but being the eternal optimist I keep thinking there is no reason to go to all that work because the next thing I do will fix it and all will be right with the world again!

If there is nothing wrong in the timing chain area I’ll probably install a numeric oil pressure gauge to see what kind of pressure the engine is generating. The standard Mustang gauge in the dash shows oil pressure at idle just below the middle of the bar, which seems to me to be normal, meaning the bearings should be fine.

If it still rumbles after all that I will admit defeat and buy another engine:sad: :embarass: :undecided ……or maybe I could borrow an engine standonder: …………...

Well, you know I am not a mechanic....but,

Did the stethoscope probing help narrow down where the noise is coming from? Does the engine run smooth except for the noise? Does the noise change when engaging the trans (putting it under load)? Casey

 

[PNewitt]

One last thought, before you go into "surgery".....

What about the exhaust? A exhaust manifold leak--or h-pipe, or just a bad muffler might be making that diesel sound; and it would go away with a higher idle, too. The pressure from one exhaust port on the head could make that sound.

Maybe do something like stick a potato (from Idaho, of course) up your tailpipe, (when it's turned off), and then start it and see if the sound changes. It might go from "de-de-die-sel"...to "FFFFTTT..uuuuFFFTTT".

Remember to point your rear end away from anything living, organic or could sustain potential damage, or bodily injury from a jettisoned potato while doing this.

(I can't believe I just said all that..)

So- just check out your pipes before you do "exploratorary surgery".

Paul N.

 

[rvrtrash]

Careful Paul! Abuse of a potato is a felony in this state!:grin:

Arlie, a few more ideas that probably aren't the problem but something to check just for laughs and giggles. Take the inspection plate off the front of the bellhousing and rotate the engine slowly with a remote starter (with the coil wire disconnected) and check to make sure the welds that hold the ring gear to the flex plate haven't broken.
Check the valve at the end of the right exhaust manifold to make sure it moves freely, the spring on the outside isn't broken and it isn't leaking.
Check your rocker arms to make sure they are adjusted correctly and the studs aren't pulling out of the heads. While you're there, check the lengths of the pushrods to make sure they are all the same and not bent.
If I think of anything else, I'll add it later. Without being there and seeing what's going on or hearing it it's hard to pinpoint, but we'll get there.

Steve

 

[Mosesatm]

Steve and Paul,

Great advice. I never thought of an exhaust problem. All that back-pressure could make for terrible noises.

Found a new clue today. As I pulled the car out of the garage to run and errand I heard a rattle and figured the license plate was loose. It wasn't, but one of the transmission cooling lines was hitting the engine oil pan.....in perfect time with the diesel noise!!!!!!!

Seems strange that the cooling line would move that much, unless the torque converter has a wobble in it. Looks like the torque converter is back in the race. I'll check your broken-weld theory, Steve.

 

[Mosesatm]

Took the car to Vintage Upgrades and Performance, a local company that upgrades and finishes-out Superformance Cobras.

They are going to rebuild the engine and the transmission, including the flexplate, and torque converter. They are also going to weld up the shock tower grease holes and solenoid screw holes, and detail the engine compartment.

Will probably have them also install a 4V setup and remove the power steering. I bought one of those power to manual converter things. Then it's time for a looooong road trip.

 

[rvrtrash]

Then it's time for a looooong road trip.

The weather up here is starting to get nice. It was in the low 60's and sunny today.
:wink:
Steve

 

[Mosesatm]

The weather up here is starting to get nice. It was in the low 60's and sunny today.
:wink:
Steve

I'm sort of considering the NW....sort of. Can't get much longer of a road trip and still be in the States; 2200 miles, 35 hours of driving, and around $350 worth of gas EACH WAY. Definitely need to get my door speakers and rear shelf speakers installed before then.

 

[joedls]

Make sure you swing by here. Olivia would love to ride in your GT/CS.

 

[PNewitt]

Arlie--

A couple of things: First, when they yank your old 289/C-4 out of there, I think you "owe us" (well, you don't really owe us, but we just gotta know) what happened?????? We've been playing "motor detective" for weeks now, and I just gotta know what the culprit was...

Second...does this place get to keep your old block, or do you toss it into a pickup and go home with it? The 289 block has some value--that is, if the innards' metal isn't all scratched up beyond .030", etc.

And third...(OK, I lied, there's three things)....why go with no power steering? What is that? Is it a "no room" issue? If you ever drove a '62 Falcon wagon like I learned to drive in, you'd want P/S.

Sounds like a plan....cool!

Paul.

 

[Mosesatm]

Paul
I am hoping they will discover the problem when they tear down the engine. When they do I'll certainly post the results here.

They are going to rebuild the existing engine if it can be rebuilt. It seems to be a good, tight engine so I'm hoping for just a re-hone and rings.
Talk about engines with value - CJ Pony Parts' latest catalog shows the core charge on a 65-68 200ci I6 at $1,000 while a 289 is $175. An engine-rebuild website shows a 200 core at $350 and a 289 core at $450. Something is goofy somewhere.

I prefer manual steering, especially with that big steering wheel. I'll keep all the parts so when I'm old and feeble I can always get the power steering re-installed.

Arlie--

A couple of things: First, when they yank your old 289/C-4 out of there, I think you "owe us" (well, you don't really owe us, but we just gotta know) what happened?????? We've been playing "motor detective" for weeks now, and I just gotta know what the culprit was...

Second...does this place get to keep your old block, or do you toss it into a pickup and go home with it? The 289 block has some value--that is, if the innards' metal isn't all scratched up beyond .030", etc.

And third...(OK, I lied, there's three things)....why go with no power steering? What is that? Is it a "no room" issue? If you ever drove a '62 Falcon wagon like I learned to drive in, you'd want P/S.

Sounds like a plan....cool!

Paul.

 

[Mosesatm]

Found out that the engine had never been rebuilt but a couple rod bearings had been replaced at some point.

The noise came from any or all of the following.
- Cam bearing were badly worn
- One piston had a cracked skirt
- The main bearings, especially the front, were badly worn
- Rod bearings were badly worn, except the 2 that were replaced.

Since it had never been rebuilt they were able to bore it .030 without any trouble. They also rebuilt the transmission and installed a new flex plate and torque converter.

They are also going to install an external transmission cooler, a 4V setup, and a pair of original GT exhaust tips I won on eBay.

Should have it back the week of the 16th.:icon_ecst

Then it'll be road-trip time!!!:icon_ecst :icon_heyb

 

[PNewitt]

The noise came from any or all of the following.
- Cam bearing were badly worn
- One piston had a cracked skirt
- The main bearings, especially the front, were badly worn
- Rod bearings were badly worn, except the 2 that were replaced.

Well, the good news is that we won't have to abuse an Idaho Potato!!! Steve will be happy 'bout that....LOL!

Gosh--all of that was bad/wrong with your engine? And it still ran? What a testimony to great Ford engineering--40 years later.

Maybe you told us--what was the total mileage on this engine? I once cracked a block at 417K miles--and it still wanted to start!! But, sludge on the dipstick said "dead". Ugh. :-(

Sounds great! Good luck with the rebuild, and I appreciate you, Arlie, keeping up updated on the problem--and solution. It made for some great reading!

Paul N.

 

[Mosesatm]

Maybe you told us--what was the total mileage on this engine?
Paul N.

Don't know how many miles it had on it. It is a '66 engine.

My guess it that it had been pulled out of a car a long time ago and was sitting around in a shop for years. When the owner of the CS needed to replace its engine they probably took the '66 engine, threw in a couple rod bearings (not sure why) and slapped it back together. They must have installed new rings, too, otherwise it should have been burning oil.

 

[Mosesatm]

Update on the engine rebuild:

Got the car back and it runs great. I kind of miss the diesel noise, though. It seems too quiet now.

A word of advice to anyone looking to rebuild an engine - make sure the shop replaces the rocker studs in the heads. The day I was going to pick up the car Mike #1 (there are 3 Mikes in the shop) was test driving it and a stud broke. They tore it all down again and then replaced all the studs. Apparently 2 or 3 others were ready to fail from corrosion.

I'm pretty happy with these guys. There is a little bit of a BS factor to deal with but they did the job they said they would do for the price they quoted.

For $3,900 they:

- Rebuilt the engine (bearings, .030 bore, pistons & rods, rings, cam & bearings, oil pump, timing assembly, harmonic balancer, heads)

- Rebuilt the transmission with a mild shift kit, new flex plate, and torque converter

- Removed the power steering and installed the converter

- Installed some GT exhaust tips I won on eBay

- Installed new transmission cooling lines

- New external transmission cooler

- Detailed the engine compartment, including moving the AC drier to the proper place

- Fixed the AC

- Rewired the fog lights (that circuit was used for the AC)

- New air cleaner assembly

- New valve covers

- New 4V intake and carb

As soon as I get a bent wheel replaced and the dash put back together (see other thread) it'll be time to drive!!!!!!!!!

 

[joedls]

Congratulations, Arlie!! I know you'll enjoy your freshened-up engine & tranny. Now when is that road trip?

 

[robert campbell]

Arlie,
I have had experience with piston skirt to cylinder knock. Becomes more pronounced as the engine gets warmer. Most prevalent in a “neutral” load on the engine. You can duplicate it at a stop by slightly revving the engine and then letting it slow down. It will be most noticeable when the engine changes from load to unload. So when you rev it and release it will make a rolling knocking for just a second or so until it is loaded by compression. Typically this is a broken skirt on one piston, or all of the pistons starting to slap the cylinder walls. All in all, the entire engine should be looked at.

The 331 sounds like a great plan. Everyone has steered you correct on cost. Although you never said the remove and replace was included in the $9k price. That would make it closer, but it still sounds very high.

The edlebrock carb is fine and a good carb for most all but very high performance applications. JBA makes a great shorty header for your car if you don’t want the performance of long tubes. They are great for most mild builds like your 331. Also, great ground clearance. I have a set on my GT/CS. Very thick flanges and no leaks. No cooked starters, no droping of PS brakets, and better performance.

Rob