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. Your thoughts on the new California Special book/registry

robert campbell

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Apr 10, 2007
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4,322
Neil,
I could not agree more! Very difficult. Lots of working with the guys on the street.

Rob
 

Mosesatm

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Jan 18, 2005
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The C/S I'm going to look at Tuesday has DSO 53 (Kansas City), an early July production date.
The paragraph above the DSO chart says "only a handful of cars" being shipped to Dallas & Kansas City. No specific quantities specified.

As for the Debut models, that would seem VERY difficult to verify. Logic would dictate that they were "customized" production line cars, prepped for the unveiling. So there would be no designation on these units as California Special. True? If GT/CS production began January 18th, it would be interesting to see Marti Reports for VIN's of units produced for that month. (Where's Sherlock Holmes when I need him?) I would think there would be a lot of documentation during the embryonic stages of developement/marketing.

Neil

The Marti data on page 81 shows the number of cars sent to each DSO and DSO 53 shows 87 cars.

Rob you may find the following of some interest.
The first book shows the earliest date at December 21st, 1967 but the new book shows the earliest date as January 18th, 1968, and as stated before the debut car shows a build date of January 31st, 1968.

Where are the cars built between January 18th and January 31st?
The mystery continues.
 
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CougarCJ

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Jul 17, 2006
Messages
2,214
The C/S I'm going to look at Tuesday has DSO 53 (Kansas City), an early July production date.
The paragraph above the DSO chart says "only a handful of cars" being shipped to Dallas & Kansas City. No specific quantities specified.

As for the Debut models, that would seem VERY difficult to verify. Logic would dictate that they were "customized" production line cars, prepped for the unveiling. So there would be no designation on these units as California Special. True? If GT/CS production began January 18th, it would be interesting to see Marti Reports for VIN's of units produced for that month. (Where's Sherlock Holmes when I need him?) I would think there would be a lot of documentation during the embryonic stages of developement/marketing.

Neil

Neil, page 81.

Kansas City DSO 53 - 87 cars.
 

robert campbell

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Apr 10, 2007
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The Marti data on page 81 shows the number of cars sent to each DSO and DSO 53 shows 87 cars.

Rob you may find the following of some interest.
The first book shows the earliest date at December 21st, 1967 but the new book shows the earliest date as January 18th, 1968, and as stated before the debut car shows a build date of January 31st, 1968.

Where are the cars built between January 18th and January 31st?
The mystery continues.

Arlie,
I have the first book. The sad part about this is the early research was done by people submitting their own data. Maybe this 21 December 1967 car was assembled or a clone. But maybe it was an early GT/CS prototype? But now any early car not verified is not a GT/CS. My car is not the only one that has been eliminated by the author.....

The mystery continues....

Rob
 

franklinair

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Mar 1, 2007
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4,744
Got it. Marti's numbers on page 81 are inclusive of all DSO's. Page 83's chart/numbers omitted a few.
But it's still a pretty good book. (I had to get mine thru Brands's)

Neil
 

Ruppstang

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May 22, 2009
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3,072
Sorry I misunderstood the title of the thread. I thought all comments regarding the book were welcome.

So you're saying the thread title should have been titled, "Only Your Positive Comments about the New California Special Book/Registry."

Rob wants to know how it's been proven that the car in question was a debut car. That is a legitimate question, and an important question. Is the answer explained in the new book?

Arlie you are right Robs question certainly deserves to be answered here and that is why I enjoy this site. What I was trying to say is please leave the personal BS out of it. I had a good talk with Midnightspecial yesterday and he enlightened me about some of the things that happened before I got envolved here and that is really too bad. I now realize that there are a lot of emotions involved. As far as the book is concerned it is our duty to find and correct any errors or omitions just as we do for the cars for sale. This site is the GT-CS authority because of the diversity of the members and their experance. It is the same in the MCA judging, the teams are made up of a scribe ( usely a judge in training) and two certified or gold card judges. With the strenth of the combined knowledge you get the most consistant and correct judging. So all that to say lets get on with what we do best here, helping others and expanding our knowledge. The truth needs no defending. Marty
 

DLedin

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May 1, 2007
Messages
64
Location
Burbank,CA
Great posts.

I'm still curious about the earlier question posed by Robert Campbell regarding Curtis Kaffer's CS being a debut car.

I know the "1 of 1" aspect can be a bit absurd and is something that lots of folks can find with their cars if you dig deep enough into various option combinations but can't it also serve to be a useful tool in the process of elimination?

Now that some of the experts here have the book, in your opinions does the information provided in the book about Curtis Kaffer's CS being a debut car hold up?

-DLedin
 

Mosesatm

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Jan 18, 2005
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In my opinion the book does not clearly prove that fact. It could be a debut car but the circular logic used in the book just doesn't do it for me.

I'd like to see the VINs listed of all the debut cars. If the author is so certain of the one he should be able to get the VINs of the others.
 

Midnight Special

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Nov 5, 2005
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.... I had a good talk with Midnightspecial yesterday and he enlightened me about some of the things that happened before I got envolved here and that is really too bad........
... The truth needs no defending. Marty

...I want to elaborate on that. Marty did not call to get a "bash Paul" session. Rather, it was all about building on, and moving forward with the good information, correcting some errors and mis-understandings then moving forward positively and freely.

For me, talking with Marty in person and hearing his concern as a truly dedicated MCA Gold judge was foundational and inspirational to say the very least! There is perhaps, more opportunity to find answers and fellowship ...on-going. Thanks Marty!
 

robert campbell

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Apr 10, 2007
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Marty has never been anything more than helpful on this site! And a treasure trove of the facts on our cars. And a huge reason why the collective knowledge of this site is the true authority of these cars.

By the way, I revisited my Marti "elite" report. My car is a 1 of 1!!! Due to its rear window defroster....... Interesting information, but just that.

And again, I am not purporting that it is a debut car. Just want to find out the facts.

Rob
 

Ruppstang

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May 22, 2009
Messages
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One of my jobs at work is to perform Ford research; create, proof read, edit our online catalog, ....and I get paid to spend time on several enthusiast forums. ( :cheesy: I actually get paid to cruise californiaspecial.com at work!) With those skills, coupled with OCD, I had time to crack this book and really digest it with my unique set of skills.

"Carcheology", thanks Tim, I now have a title for work. I will hence forth be known as the 'Carcheogist'.

Kudos first.

Tons of good information that will aid me in the restoration of my GT/CS. I am talking about the specific GT/CS stuff. Stripes, script, Lucas fog lights, hood and hood wiring, tail light installation, etc. This is the reason that I ordered the book. I really like the Kevin Marti production numbers on pages 80-81. Really nice to see the information from ACSCO, with the drawings and what not.

Good reference stuff on the late model CT/CS cars, it I ever chose buy one of those.

OK, now for the inaccuracies and mistakes that I see. You MCA judges please correct me if I make a mistake. Book errors, if not mentioned could be detrimental to folks coming in late or those trying to authenticate a 1968 GT/CS from this book.

Page 91. Second line of the VIN tag 1. the “Body Code” section. Add code 65D - ‘Hardtop Décor Bench Seat’. Marti confirms this on page 80 ...Knitted Décor Bench Seat.
Page 116. That 289/302 air cleaner snorkel with the vacuum fitting was only used up until early April-ish 1968. The overwhelming majority of our cars will not use this snorkel.
Page 116. Reversible or ‘double’ cut keys began in 1967. New front suspension “hockey stick” lower control arms for better ride. Substitute ‘strut rods’ for ‘lower control arms’.
Page 117. I am pretty sure that the word “Challenger” only referred to the 289 engine. As was mentioned prior, the specifications listed are for the F code 302-2V (which was not available on the Mustang in 1968). The 302-4V also has 4 venturis. Single exhaust only, unless the GT option was checked off. On the 289 engine section – I do not believe that the 289 V8 engine was available in a 1968 Torino GT.
Page 118. ‘Thunderbird V-8’? ‘Thunderbird Special V-8’? I don’t think so. The S code 390-GT engines came with a Holley carburetor with 4 venturis, not 1 venturi.
Page 119. Pet peeve of mine. The 1968 W code 427-4V engine, was only installed in Cougars, nothing else.
Page 137. Caption is incorrect. The Knott’s Berry Farm show is called “Fabulous Fords Forever”, it is an iconic show in SoCal.
Page 149. Engine compartment concours detailing – Brake parts. Master Cylinder and Cap – Gloss Black. I thought that the master cylinder was ‘natural cast’ and the cap was ‘gold cadmium’??
Page 157. The California Special side script pins, were secured in the trunk with flat “speed nuts”. The industry name for these fasteners is “Flat Nuts”. Speed nuts are stamped nuts that are self threading.

You want OCD stuff? I scanned through the registry pages and found lots of errors. Cars with standard body code 65A with Décor interior codes, Décor interior code cars (65B) with standard interior trim codes. There are 2 - S code cars with C4 transmissions, 7 – J code cars with C6 transmissions, 6 – C code cars with C6 transmissions, 3 cars that have a code “N” transmission, and 1 car that has a code “V” transmission.
Page 195. T150309 65A M 2K 13C 72 4 W
Page 195. C150309 65C I 8U 15C 72 2 W Paul Batto.
There are a bunch of cars listed on page 194, that have date code errors, or correct date codes with consecutive VIN number errors.
If someone doesn’t see their VIN number it is likely out of sequential order, there are a bunch of those. I lost track before the end.
Page 193. C143053 65A I 2G 16B 71 2 W Jim and Shirley Kelley
Page 193. C143053 65A Y 2Y 16B 71 2 W Unknown
Page 202. J169958 owned by Rober Coutches. It’s there, about 16 from the bottom on the left column.
Page 203. C169958 owned by Art Sahlstein.
Too many other minor errors to list, mostly simple key stroke errors on trim codes and maybe dates.
Some of the dates worry me, they fall into the VIN sequence of cars built in Dearborn. If the dates are correct, then OMG the sequential VIN numbers are wrong.

Scott,
I am so impressed with the depth of your knowledge. I am bit envious of your job. I have only had time to skim partly through the book. I did catch the strut rod and double cut key ones as well. The MCA rules say the master cylinder is semigloss black or natural cast iron and the cap is semigloss black. I wish you could have proofed the book. People read this stuff in print and take it as gods proof and then us judges are the one that have to convince them that they are not right. Keep up the good work. Marty
 

J_Speegle

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Jun 19, 2006
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488
Interesting job an application of skills - sure this will help develop a list of corrections posted on line. Think there was one already started. Agree with Marty - great job to have but basically the same one we all have, if we choose to - you just get paid for it LOL

Page 149. Engine compartment concours detailing – Brake parts. Master Cylinder and Cap – Gloss Black. I thought that the master cylinder was ‘natural cast’ and the cap was ‘gold cadmium’??

We changed over to all black (should state semi0gloss black) a while back though under the paint ;) they are cast main bodies and plated caps. BTW the text shows semi-gloss black, not Gloss black as mentioned in your post - CORRECTION - the rules (posted online) still state


"Master Cylinder, Power Brake Unit and Rigid Brake Lines:
Master Cylinder: Semi-gloss black or cast iron finish.
Cap: Semi-gloss black with debossed warning and decal.
Power Brake Booster: Semi-gloss black finish."

Not sure if the judging sheets match this verbiage. I thought that we had agreed and made the change in the 2010 rules. Will check into it but the current wording does not make sense IMHO



There is a issue on pg 152 (not sure how it got past review (???) The tie rod assy should not have the word "Dark" included. As Marty wrote judges have to deal with the results (both good and poor) of every magazine article and book, as do owners. One reason I spent some time with Paul in the Concours section of the book. Figured it was better to invest time there than in fixing stuff later as a result of poor information going in.


Some of the dates worry me, they fall into the VIN sequence of cars built in Dearborn. If the dates are correct, then OMG the sequential VIN numbers are wrong.

Could you provide an example as I'm not aware of any Dearborn only sequence in 6 and we know the VINs and dates have little or nothing to do with one another?
 
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CougarCJ

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Jul 17, 2006
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Could you provide an example as I'm not aware of any Dearborn only sequence in 6 and we know the VINs and dates have little or nothing to do with one another?

Several of the VIN's with stated dates line up with the cars from Dearborn. I am using the VIN ranges by month, from Kevin Marti's Tag Book.

Several cases of the dates being 2+ months from what would be expected from the series of sequential numbers.
 

J_Speegle

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Jun 19, 2006
Messages
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Several of the VIN's with stated dates line up with the cars from Dearborn. I am using the VIN ranges by month, from Kevin Marti's Tag Book.

Ok, so we don't have reported Cal Specials with the same sequential numbers as ones built at Dearborn. Its just that the number is out of sequence with what Kevin found is the general range of VIN's produced within certain months Believe the VIN spreads by month are a general statement rather than hard and fast rule relating to every car built. See below


Several cases of the dates being 2+ months from what would be expected from the series of sequential numbers.

We have examples where cars waited 4-6 months to be built while other orders were placed and build. Would agree that sometimes (within 90 days) there is some correlation but there are those examples where the projected build date and the real build date are way out of the expected. Not typical but not unseen either IMHO

We have not been able to explain why one order gets built and another one waits though it can be related to order type, payment, options, approval....
 
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hookedtrout

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Mar 28, 2003
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Idaho
Took a quick glance at the book today thumbing through the pages and from an aesthetic standpoint Paul did a fantastic job, it is very well laid out and looks awesome, all the color photos and such look great.
 

CougarCJ

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Jul 17, 2006
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We have examples where cars waited 4-6 months to be built while other orders were placed and build. Would agree that sometimes (within 90 days) there is some correlation but there are those examples where the projected build date and the real build date are way out of the expected. Not typical but not unseen either IMHO

We have not been able to explain why one order gets built and another one waits though it can be related to order type, payment, options, approval....

I agree, it happens. I could also see that a lack of GT/CS specific parts may delay cars from being built. The door tag date was a 'scheduled for build' date. Actual build and release dates often are days later on the Marti Reports for GT/CS cars. My guess is that these cars were scheduled and assembled in blocks or groups on the assembly line once per week or even less often, so that it didn't slow down the assembly rate. Was there any mention of assembly patterns in the book? I didn't catch it if was mentioned.

One of my friends maintains the National Cougar Database, and he sees patterns or blocks of cars sequentially by DSO and sometimes color. This pattern has been observed specifically for Dearborn built cars. The reasoning is that a schedule like this worked well for loading and distribution regionally by train. San Jose cars may or may not have followed a similar pattern.
 

RU_SPCL2

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May 1, 2011
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One of my friends maintains the National Cougar Database, and he sees patterns or blocks of cars sequentially by DSO and sometimes color. This pattern has been observed specifically for Dearborn built cars. The reasoning is that a schedule like this worked well for loading and distribution regionally by train. San Jose cars may or may not have followed a similar pattern.

Using the garage search feature :)cool:), I discovered that my car (8R01C149779) and its sequential sibling (8R01C149780) share the same scheduled production date (13C) and DSO, and are similarly equipped, including engine, transmission and many other options. They don't share the same color (Lime Gold vs. Presidential Blue). The Marti report (see my garage) indicates my car was built for dealer stock, so perhaps this suggests that GT/CS orders were batched for both assembly and transportation efficiency.

Kudos on the garage feature -- one search turned up a valuable piece of information I might not have discovered otherwise.
 

J_Speegle

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I agree, it happens. I could also see that a lack of GT/CS specific parts may delay cars from being built. The door tag date was a 'scheduled for build' date. Actual build and release dates often are days later on the Marti Reports for GT/CS cars. My guess is that these cars were scheduled and assembled in blocks or groups on the assembly line once per week or even less often, so that it didn't slow down the assembly rate. Was there any mention of assembly patterns in the book? ............


No mention in the book as for assembly patterns - don't think we've gotten that clearly (cars intermixed with "regular cars" or built in bunches) Given that these cars likely required more time than others its hard to tell which way they went but will ask (hopefully someone will have a clear memory of the process) next time I get the opportunity

Managers that ran other locations (plants) spoke more (on the grouping of cars) about arranging the cars based on available parts and not having difficult cars grouped together - to keep the line from slowing down. Not anything related to distribution concern,

Just passing on what they have told us ;)
 

DLedin

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May 1, 2007
Messages
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Location
Burbank,CA
Hi folks.

I received a message from Paul regarding some of the questions and comments that have been posted here about his book. In it he does confirm that a Marti Report specifically states that Curtis Kaffer's CS was ordered by Lee Grey which I find interesting.

Here's his message, which is actually addressed to all the members at this site:

Hello everyone,

Any book will have some mistakes--and as I stated in the preface in the
registry section, there WILL be errors, and I had to work from what people
sent me. I spent hundreds and hundreds of hours decifering the data sent to
me to do this registry. If there were only a few errors out of 1,350 cars
listed, then I'm doing just fine. To take every car and analyze each data
code number and whether it fit in line with the others would literally have
taken me "four more years" to get right. Remember--I was working with what
people sent me, and once all this data was lined up in print (an incredible
job in itself), it's really easy to find things that may appear
inconsistent. Also--this registry, and its data supercedes my 1989 and 1996
books. Production began on January 18th, according to the data from Kevin
Marti. The confusion I see here can be resolved if those really interested
would read the entire production chapter, and see everything in context.
You can't judge this data simply at face value--you have to understand it
all in context. The numbers game for these cars is not an exact science,
despite my best shot at figuring it out. There is clearly no other Mustang
out there with this much data in print.

Curtis' GT/CS IS the car on the stage. The Marti report stated that it was
specially ordered by Lee Grey, and (specifically stated on the Marti Report)
was sent to his office at the Pico Rivera Plant, just in time for the Feb
15th event. It truly is a one-of-one car, and worth a lot! This has all
been confirmed by talking to Lee on the phone.

If anyone reads in detail about how the script was attached to the early
cars, I said that there "could" be some descrepancies in position. This is
because the drilling fixture to install the script had to be made very
quickly to satisfy 200 cars out in the parking lot behind the plant.
Production was again, NOT an exact science. I stated that the first 50-100
cars were hand-built, and some parts may have not been consistent, due to
how this was done. Again, read--read--read how I explained this, and you'll
find out the answers to most of your questions and confusion.

I just want people to enjoy this book, and I DID put literally everything I
had and could do for it--including the sale of my own GT/CS. I am getting
magazine editors stating that this book "has no equal" for books on specific
Mustangs, etc.... I would hope that those who are reading and enjoying this
book understand that this is a huge, 80,000 word book, with TONS of data and
charts.

There are some new details that took a lot to find, such as the taillight
backing plate grommet sourced from a pickup speedo cable. That alone took
an entire day to resolve. I also have part numbers from the blueprints that
took a lot of effort to figure out. Numbers that were translated from
Shelby Automotive numbers to Ford numbers, then to Ford Service part
numbers. I also had to research the Cougar trim color part number for the
GT/CS grille...that I found in a paint store with old Ford sourcebooks,
since no Cougar experts were able to provide me with that number. Not an
easy job. The DSO pages took quite a lot of time to work from, since there
were two versions to interpret from old Ford paperwork. ALL of this was
painstaking work, and I'm just glad that it's now in print. Whew!!

If anyone wishes to persue any specific detail with this car, then go for
it, and others interested will benefit from it. I took my 25 years of
materials and research skills to provide what you see, to set the roots for
newly discovered aspects that might surface months to years from now (that
kind of energy here might be more beneficial and legitimate than just a
close edit of my book).

As for the Concours information, I printed what Jeff Speegle gave me. Ford
also went over the book, and a few things may have been lost in the
translation. I think that considering the chance Jeff and I took by
bringing all of this information and diagrams forward, the open discussion
WILL bring out any new information and updates to specific parts, colors,
etc. But we are so far ahead by having this information in print for those
who wish to do a Concours GT/CS restoration!! Once the paint is done
corectly, the bolt-on parts are easy to change, update, etc. We owe Jeff a
ton of thanks for making this effort for me and my book. My goal of
creating Concours-ready GT/CS Mustangs out there to take trophies at car
shows just might be realized!

Despite all of these details and whatever "differences" flew among some on
this board in the past, my goal was to give back to those who love their
cars, something to make them very proud to have and show at car shows--or
wherever you may be where people ask about your GT/CS. It's already
happening.

I also wanted to bridge that gap between the original and late-model cars by
telling their history. There is no doubt that you will benefit by how this
book will raise the awareness, desire for restoration, and overall increase
in values in the many years to come. The GT/CS marque is now finally secure
by my book. This has been my contribution to the Mustang world, despite all
the difficulties to produce it.

Thank you for your time, support and understanding for all these years.
Know that my book is a celebration for you--of what GT/CS was, is, and will
become for many years to come, like no other Mustang!

The bottom line is that you have fun with your GT/CS.
That's all that matters.

Paul M. Newitt

If there are some who have a different opinon or who would take issue or exception to what Paul had to say above please be aware that I'm not taking up a position as a spokesperson for Paul so don't expect me to address points that you may raise in response to Paul's message. He has been a long-time acquaintance of mine and I post this as a favor to him and to those on this site who are interested in what he has to say.

I'm aware that some here have their differences with Paul and I have no desire to involve myself in those differences. I think the common, positive goal we all share is establishing accurate information about our cars, as much as that is possible.

-DLedin
 
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390cs68rcode

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Dec 29, 2004
Messages
2,864
Location
Houston Texas
I have taken a little time to thumb through the book and read a few sections. I like the book, lots of info and lots of pics. Slightly bummed I didn't get a pic or mention of my car somewhere.
 
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