. push rod/rockers help

[jaystang]

Hey Guys,
As some of you know I'm in the process of building up a 351w to toss in my 68. This is my first time ever taking an engine this far apart and building it back up. Everything has been pretty smooth but I'm at a point where I need some help.

First off, I went with an Edelbrock Performer RPM cam & lifter kit, and topped it off with these ebay aluminum heads.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BRAND-NEW-302-351W-FORD-PERFORMANCE-CYLINDER-HEADS_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742Q2em153Q2el1262QQcategoryZ33617QQihZ023QQitemZ360107871932#ht_1529wt_0

My first question is can I use roller rockers w/ this cam setup? I noticed they are special "roller" style cams but wasn't quite sure if that had anything to do with the rockers the i could use.

My second question is what to go with for push rod length? I emailed the seller of the heads and he said to go with .100 - .150 longer then the original length push rods. I believe there were different size push rod lengths for the different years of the 351w. My block is a 1984. If anyone knows the length of the rods off an 84 block let me know.

Thanks in advance,
~Jamie

 

[robert campbell]

Jamie,
After looking at the pictures of your heads and the description, this should not be a problem. If they are as noted, you have a fully adjustable valve train. They look like they have screw in 7/16 inch diameter studs and guide plates as most performance heads do. You will need hardened push rods to go with the guide plates. You can run pretty much any roller rocker on the market with a 1.6 ratio.

Ford went to non-adjustable valve train in the late 60’s which you stock heads more than likely have. They used open holes n the heads for the push rods to go through and uses a long stem above the retainer on the valve coupled with a “rail” system on the end of the rocker arm to surround this stem and keep the rocker on the valve. Good for stock motors, but they would not support much lift. With this non-adjustable system valve adjustment was done by the proper length pushrod. You are free from that.
Crane offers an aluminum roller rocker for $199.95 through Summit Racing. Part number CRN-11747-16. A great value and they come with a positive lock system for the nuts. Summit has Ford Racing aluminum roller rockers for $279.95. FMS-M-6564-A351. A step up and they are pretty Ford blue!! Many others out there.

Now to the push rod length. You need to tell me if you are running a roller or flat tappet cam. The roller lifter is taller and uses a shorter push rod. I could not quite tell by what you wrote. CRN-44621-16 is 8.156 long and works for a flat tappet. Please tell me what cam and lifters you are using. I will research it for you. Even the roller lifters vary in length.
Rob

 

[jaystang]

Jamie,
After looking at the pictures of your heads and the description, this should not be a problem. If they are as noted, you have a fully adjustable valve train. They look like they have screw in 7/16 inch diameter studs and guide plates as most performance heads do. You will need hardened push rods to go with the guide plates. You can run pretty much any roller rocker on the market with a 1.6 ratio.

Ford went to non-adjustable valve train in the late 60’s which you stock heads more than likely have. They used open holes n the heads for the push rods to go through and uses a long stem above the retainer on the valve coupled with a “rail” system on the end of the rocker arm to surround this stem and keep the rocker on the valve. Good for stock motors, but they would not support much lift. With this non-adjustable system valve adjustment was done by the proper length pushrod. You are free from that.
Crane offers an aluminum roller rocker for $199.95 through Summit Racing. Part number CRN-11747-16. A great value and they come with a positive lock system for the nuts. Summit has Ford Racing aluminum roller rockers for $279.95. FMS-M-6564-A351. A step up and they are pretty Ford blue!! Many others out there.

Now to the push rod length. You need to tell me if you are running a roller or flat tappet cam. The roller lifter is taller and uses a shorter push rod. I could not quite tell by what you wrote. CRN-44621-16 is 8.156 long and works for a flat tappet. Please tell me what cam and lifters you are using. I will research it for you. Even the roller lifters vary in length.
Rob

Hi Rob,
Thanks you so much for the response. This is quite helpful!!

Here is the exact cam that I have. It is a flat tappet cam...
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=EDL-7182&autoview=sku

Let me know what you think! Thanks again!

 

[robert campbell]

Jamie,
Both rockers and the CRN-44621-16 push rods should be correct.

Read the instructions carefully for lifter adjustment. I always like to go through the firing order one by one to adjust. Get the lifters down to zero lash and 1/4 turn more. Take the heater hose loose from the intake when you fill and just use pure water for startup. This ensures you do not get an air bubble. Leave it off while you fill until the water comes out. Reattached and fill the radiator. I even preheat the oil and use hot water. Use a straight 30 weight oil for the break in. Get a good reversible drill. Run the oil pump until all rocker arms drip oil. Roll the motor by hand while your buddy runs the drill (no sparkplugs yet). Roll the motor back to number one a drop the distributor in. Have a timing light attached and ready to go. Have the fuel line hooked up during all of this. Before you put the spark plugs in, roll the engine with the starter for 30 seconds. This will prime the carb. If all goes well and you got the distributor in correct it will start. Immediately bring it up to 2,000 rpm and leave it there for 20 minutes. Get the timing light and make sure you have around 30 to 36 degrees of advance for this time frame. No more. If it will not come up and run good right away, stop the motor as quick as possible to avoid cam damage. I like to use a known carb so it is close to the correct adjustment. Borrow one from a buddy. I even like to use an old point distributor as they are easy to get very close by spinning them until the points just start to open. If the distributor is on the right tooth it will start right up.
You should have a good radiator as they run hot during this break in. I also like to have a known oil pressure gauge hooked up. And the exhaust system completely hooked up. No open headers. Hard to here odd noises.
Wish I was there! Love to start up new Ford engines!!!
Rob

 

[jaystang]

Perfect! Thanks so much. I wish you were here as well, you really know your stuff! This is all very new to me.

Now the seller of the heads said i should go .100 - .150 longer then stock push rods. Do I need to go a tad longer then the CRN-44621-16 rods or did you factor that in?

 

[robert campbell]

Jamie,
8.156 length is the stock length for a 351 Windsor with a flat tappet cam. Not sure why the head builder wanted a longer pushrod. .125 is 1/8 of an inch so he seems to want you somewhere there. There is a 351 Cleveland pushrod in an 8.406 length. CRN-52621-16. But that is a full ¼ inch longer. Close as I could find. You DO need hardened push rods for guide plate use!

In my experience most aftermarket heads are very faithful to stock dimensions so as to fit most other parts. Unless they are extreme high performance parts. You may want to call the builder and ask why. Maybe he can recommend a part number of a push rod that is a bit longer.

If it was me, I would buy the stock length pushrod. Install two of them on the number one cylinder. You can buy two stock ones locally at 8.156 that you can take back, or measure your old ones. Buy two “stock adjustable” rockers for a 65/66 289. They have 7/16 holes in their “ball sockets” and will fit your studs, are not “rail” type, but do not have a roller tip. Gently tighten down a non-locking 7/16 nut from a local store to zero lash. If the push rod is wrong, you may run out of threads on the stud before you achieve zero lash. I doubt it. Send me a pic of it in this position with the number one in firing position. It is kinda hard to judge, but the rocker should appear “parallel” to the face of the head deck so to speak. Imagine a real short pushrod and how the rocker would drop towards the head. Go ahead and roll it slowly through the complete cycle (two complete revolutions of the crank). Watch it carefully, especially at max lift for any contact to the valve spring retainer. Watch the tip of the rocker arm and see if it stays centered on the valve tip. My gut tells me that you will be fine. Adjustable valve train can compensate, but only so much.

You may have a local engine builder that can loan you the above stuff. Wish I was there; I have all of this stuff on the shelf.

But, call this head builder. Ask him why. I may be missing something. Ask him who casted this head. It may be unique and not to stock specs. Stranger things have happened.

You can go ahead a buy the roller tip aluminum rockers and do the same experiment as above. They are correct.
Rob

 

[robert campbell]

Jamie,
Yet more info. All from Summit Racing.

CCA-7830-16 Comp Cams 8.212 length or about .056 longer
CCA-7966-16 comp Cams 8.200 length Chrome Moly heat treated (better)

I would get the roller rockers and mock up a stock length push rod and look.

Rob

 

[green56]

are the lifters very noise on a 289 or do they have to be adjusted often

 

[robert campbell]

Stock hydraulic lifters in good condition, properly adjusted, are stone quiet. Once adjusted they should stay put (quiet) for years and years if the engine is taken care of properly.

 

[jaystang]

Rob,
Thanks for everything. I'm going to give the head guy a call, but I think i'll end up going w/ the stock length. I'll let you know how I make out.

~Jamie

 

[case12]

Here is my dumb question of the day.

Why do the valves have to be adjusted in timing order? Can't I just bump the engine until the rocker arm is topped and then tighten it until the push rod is not spinning (and then a quarter turn). Can't I just do that for each valve without regard to timing order?

Again, I am not an engine guy and have only adjusted my valves a couple of times. But it sounds like experts are here and can tell me why I need to do it in timing order (which I have always done in the past).

My real reason for asking is that if I just have one valve or two that I think is knocking, I should be able to just adjust those only - right? As I understand it, hydraulic lifters are pretty forgiving when it comes to adjustment - right?

Thanks, Casey

 

[robert campbell]

Casey,
The valves have to be adjusted at “zero lift”. If you tightened the valve when it is in a “lifted” or “open position” when the cam rotates and it is at zero lift, then it would be loose, or have clearance between the valve stem and the rocker arm. The valve must be adjusted when the cam is rotated to a position of zero lift. There are sequences for stock cams to have their valves adjusted two cylinders at a time noted in many manuals. But with high performance cams with increased duration, this may not work. The safe way is to rotate EACH cylinder in the firing order sequence to top dead position, or the position of the spark plug firing. This assures that you are on the “base circle” of the cam almost exactly opposite the high spot or max lift of the of the cam lobe. This ensures no lift is in effect when you adjust and the valves are tight when in the relaxed position.

An old method of valve adjusting is to cut an opening in a stock steel valve cover to just expose the rocker arm nuts and adjust while the engine is at hot idle. You can go down each lock nut and back off until you hear a “clack clack clack”. Slowly, and I do mean slowly, tighten the nut until the clack disappears, and then SLOWLY down 1/4 of a turn. You will actually hear the engine slow as you slowly tighten down and preload the lifter.

Now depending on the oil pump, oil pressure, and type of lifters, you can get some oil shooting around. Messy at best. If you are chasing one or two loosely adjusted lifters you can tighten on each nut 1/8 of a turn and see if you can find one that is loose. Then go ahead and back it off until you hear the clacking and then tighten as above. Once you get it quiet, you should do the above with each lock nut to ensure all are similar.

I like to do this static or not running myself. The problem sometimes is with a lifter that is not “pumped up” with oil. This can be very common with a new motor. That is why I recommend that you run the oil pump and prelube until all the rockers are dripping oil. And this needs to happen with the lifters adjusted very close to where they should be as you prelube. I adjust the lifters to zero before I prelube. And then adjust again after I run the oil pump. But with a motor that has been run like yours, I would bring it up to operational temp, and then shut it down. Take both covers off and roll through the order one at a time in sequence. As you said, the ability to spin the push rod is a good indication of “load” on the lifter or zero lash. At zero lash it no longer spins easily. Go though each one in order and adjust ¼ turn from zero lash. If everything is in order you are good to go.

Rob

 

[franklinair]

OLD MEMORIES!! I used to watch my dad, and he taught me, to adjust the valves while the engine is running. Rob is exactly right in his method & description. The oil lubricating the rockers DOES splatter around, but @ idle - not too badly. I would just spray everything down with mineral spirits & wipe it all down when I was done. (The customers liked it too. Their engine would be a lot cleaner than when they brought it in.)
With these cars now, I would drape old towels around the area (not on the exhaust manifold, though!) to catch the splatters.

Neil

 

[robert campbell]

Neil,
Still have a beat up old 289 valve cover with a slit cut out of the top..... Even have a brand X (chevy) one.... 289 one is multi colored. Used it to paint heads and keep the paint out of the valve spring area! Double duty!

Rob

 

[case12]

Robert. That was an awesome explanation and I really appreciate it. One can read books all day, but to have it explaned by someone who does it makes the difference. I have done the static adjustment of valves in firing order, and always wondered why. Now I know. I have seen people do it with the covers off and a sheild in place to catch the oil....seems messy to me. I really appreciate the family here at the site and love to learn. Thanks! Casey