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. Satan is a cool girl

68 special

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 17, 2004
Messages
525
Rob, No matter what you sign, there is always a loop hole somewhere! Love the hood on the GT/CS and that fastback, oh my gawd. Love the stance. Can't wait to see them both.

Bret
 

Gregpet

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Joined
Feb 4, 2009
Messages
51
Location
Dallas, TX
I cannot imagine it running worth spit at 6 deg atdc. As the guy who put most of the pollution gear on those cars back then, dont worry about the double diaphragm its actually nice. It retards your spark only at idle and as soon as the regular diaphragm sees vacuum it is back to its regular spark curve(it does not retard it thru the whole curve). In fact if you run a lot of initial like I usually do the old double diaphragm can be good because it gives you a cleaner idle. Depending on the engine they can run a little rough at say 12 to 16 degrees btdc but the off idle performance is worth it. When you use the double diaphragm it retards your idle back to 6 btdc which is the factory setting. Gives you a better idle and correct for the 2 barrell carb because you dont close off the transition slot which you sometimes have to do when you advance too far. So I like the DD distributor. Originally we put them on to reduce hydrocarbons and CO at idle. Idle was a big part of the epa testing so it meant something to reduce them even a little.

I switched over to Pertronix electronic ignition and thought I would go ahead and change the original distributor while I had it out (my mechanic also suggested that I change it out since he thought there was too much play in the original unit).

I want to keep the car stock so I bought a rebuilt distributor from the local Mustang shop (Dallas Mustang). My original unit has the double diaphragm while the new rebuilt unit is a single diaphragm. Can I swap out the single with the double on the rebult unit (new distributor & old diaphragm)? Are there any parts within the double diaphragm that are susceptible to aging so therefore I may not want to re-use the double diaphrapm?

I like the idea of a cleaner idle and possibly better mileage - I just don't want to keep a 40+ YO part in the car if it may cause problems later...

Also, does anyone know of a good tutorial out on the web for setting the timing and general distributor/ignition performance. I have the basics down but would love a good lesson that I can review at my own speed...

Thanks!
Greg
 
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robert campbell

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Apr 10, 2007
Messages
4,322
Greg,
I am unsure if the centrifugal advance in the single diaphragm is the same in a single diaphragm and dual diaphragm distributor. Mechanicalguy (Steve) may have that answer. My gut says you more than likely can just swap the diaphragms and go.

Of not the beauty of the Pertronix conversion is the electronic unit is not sensitive to play in the upper bushing. So if you had mild play in the old distributor it would not matter. Play in the upper bushing really affects point distributors as the “wobble” at high speeds closed the gap which increased the dwell angle and affect the spark. That why with an old point distributor it is best to check the dwell at about 2,500 rpm which is your normal engine speed while driving. That is where you want the dwell to be accurate.

So that said, I bet you could use your old distributor and put the Pertronix in it.

On the subject of diaphragms. Many are leaking and useless. Hook a short piece of vacuum line or remove the end from the carb and suck on it with the distributor cap off. You will see the point plate move. Once it stops, put the tip of your tongue on the hose to hold the vacuum. If the plate slowly moves back and your tongue has no suction, the diaphragm is defective. On your dual one check both one at a time. The diaphragm closest to the points will move the point plate counterclockwise and the diaphragm furthest will move the point plate clockwise.

Earlier in the thread you will see Steve and I talk about initial timing. This is the timing you set by turning the distributor in the engine. Clockwise will advance the timing and counter clockwise will retard the timing. Clean your marks on the damper and use some chalk to lightly rug the lines and numbers. It should help them stand out. Of better yet get a degree tape for the local auto part store. Your car should be set at 6 degrees BTDC per the factory. You need to be sure your read this properly. 6 degrees before is in a “down” direction on you damper if you have it lined up on TDC. Not up! That is if you time it 6 degrees “after top dead center” (ATDC) your car, to quote Steve, “will not run worth spit”. I liked that!

Steve further talked about 6 degrees BTDC as being very safe. You must check all timing with no hoses hooked to the diaphragms. And the car at normal curb idle, hot. About 700 RPM in neutral. If you keep the light hooked up and you plug in the hose for the “back” diaphragm, you will see the timing drop to about eact TDC on the damper. I think that is to “retarded” for a car to idle cleanly at.

Steve recommends that you set your initial at 12 degrees BTDC for a start point. No hoses hooked up. Then when you hook up the back diaphragm, it will drop to 6 degrees BTDC or close to that. I am doing this with "Satan" tomorrow.

But if you do this, then test drive it on a hot day at full operating temp. Come up to a short hill at about 25 or 30 in second gear and floor the car. At this speed in second it should be lugging a bit. If it “pings” a couple times and then accelerates smoothly with no more pinging, you are very close. If it keeps pinging a bunch, take your foot off and go home and set it at 10 degrees. If it does not ping at all, set it at 14 degrees. Close to optimum is a couple hard pings and then nothing after that. Certainly if you are pulling grades in third gear and you hear pinging then take a couple degrees back towards TDC.

Now if you did this on 92 octane and then cheap out for some 87, you may experience pinging. So ensure you tune it on the grade of gasoline you intend to run.

Rob
 

CougarCJ

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
2,216
From what I have learned over the years, the dual advance distributors were to help with the early emissions, that were beginning in the late 1960's. They seem to be found mostly on manual transmission cars.

With a rebuilt distributor it should have a working and calibrated vacuum advance.

Adding Pertronix to your distributor is a good thing and you should like it. I have found a guy that rebuilds distributors and sets them with Pertronix in mind as well as the particulars for you engine and car. Things such as engine size, compression, type of transmission, rear end ratio, tire size, car weight, and style of driving.
 

mechanicalguy48

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2008
Messages
77
Location
Poulsbo Washington
Yeah Rob is right on. for those of you that like a good correct timing write-up look at

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2000/03/timing/index.shtml

That article is correct and very good and easy to understand. If you read articles like I do in these magazines you will find incorrect information in many of them because darn few mechanics fully understand timing and its implications(both centrifugal and part throttle-vacuum) . The peak pressure of your cylinders is controlled by timing,,,,peak pressure = horsepower so when your timing is messed up you lose horsepower big time. The use of dual diaphragm distributors was for CO and some affect on HC for emissions at idle. It depends on the "calibration" of the engine. In any single model year you might have one, two or fifteen different calibrations released for a single car during that year, like 289/2v/auto. Thats why you see different carburetor numbers and different distributors, depending on the calibration level. Later in the 70's when we had driveability problems we would first release a "safe" calibration that we knew would pass 50,000 mile certification and then later we would work on fixes to make the car more driveable. So really the later in the year the better. Once catalysts came along things got a little better.
On using a dual diaphragm in a standard distr,,,,,, mmmm I am not 100% positive but I dont think you can because the plate has to rotate back from the standard position. I think the plate stops are different. If you take upper and lower plates with it ,,, yeah you can do it. You can run the single diaphragm and not have problems, I just like the dual one because it sets your timing back at idle and your not running 12 or 14 degrees at idle which isnt necessary and causes you to close down the idle system to control the idle. Your idle system in reality flows much longer then most people realize, fuel comes thru the transfer slot and idle slots and up to 30/40 mph (light load) your not really flowing much in the main system, so your idle system is calibrated to that. Most 2 barrels could use a slightly higher idle jet,,,,, but whats an idle jet steve??? When you pull out the booster assembly there are two long tubes sticking down into the idle fuel well. Those long tubes are double,,,,a perforated tube(emulsion tube) that allows air in and an inner tube that transfers fuel. That inner tube has a calibrated orifice at the tip ,,,around .028 inches,,,some smaller some bigger. If you like an initial offline surge, open that orifice up about .002 to .004 inches it will make a difference. shhhhhhh,,,dont tell anyone else about that,,,,, its my secret to make these 2 barrel carbs really run well.
 

aemoo28

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Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
1,127
Location
The Great Northwest
I'm just amazed that all of this overheating nonsense was because of those silly tubes. What a great discussion that erupted from this thread!
 
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robert campbell

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Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Messages
4,322
Black Beauty is one nice running car. Brake lights are fixed (broken wire at the switch). I hate working under the dash!!! We timed and tuned and timed and tuned. She is running alot of advance now, does not ping, and is way more responsive.

80 degree day today and BB is still a little warm idling in traffic. Shroud is next and I may drop her to a 160 thermostat.

What a great looking car! Paint is nice, interior is beautiful. Stance is perfect. We need to fix a small exhaust leak and get her a new power steering control valve.

This car is a "man magnet"!!!

Rob
 

aemoo28

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
1,127
Location
The Great Northwest
Great job, Rob!

She was absolutely perfect all the way home. Even took her to the beach in stop and go traffic- temp hardly veered from middle at all. Wow. What a difference in power!

Ok, confession... this Harley guy nodded & revved up his bike at the light next to me... a challenge is so hard to resist! But I did. I did!

She's got so much gusto now, it's hard not to chirp those tires! Old? Not her! She's been born again!

Thank you Steve, Rob, everyone.

We'll be at our first show tomorrow, Sunday, in Issaquah at the XXX Diner in case anyone needs some fun in the sun with a CS!
 
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robert campbell

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Apr 10, 2007
Messages
4,322
In the terms of younger people. Was the Harley guy hot?

Or an old geez like the rest of us..... Well some of us...

Rob
 

mechanicalguy48

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Joined
Dec 8, 2008
Messages
77
Location
Poulsbo Washington
Ohh I see she has been renamed now huh ,,,,,,Well the car was a little retarded then ,,so to speak and has passed that phase thanks to Rob. Looks like your on the show circuit now Amy.
 
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robert campbell

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Apr 10, 2007
Messages
4,322
All,
Steve (mechanical guy) Rob, Amy, and Mike Godwin had another "go" at Satan today. She is still a “cool” girl, and Steve donated a single diaphragm distributor with a Pertronix conversion to her. Steve did some fine-tuning and Rob was all over her back window that quit working. I donated a control valve to her power steering and we got power in both directions now. Steve and Rob had a great time under her with tranny fluid all over ourselves….

Steve has two beautiful Mustangs!! A black 65 Fastback with 17 inch wheels, a five speed, and Shelby taillights. A red 65 or 66 Coupe with dual redline tires and red interior. WOW! And a lift for working on cars!! I WANT a lift!! I new friend who will never be offended by my huge “outdoor” voice. He is a bit hard of hearing….. What a great day!!

She still needs a better power steering pump and we have a nagging exhaust leak. Mike G and Amy are tackling that another day. Mike’s engine work is superb. The engine is quiet and smooth. And he did this all on a “house” call. Thanks Mike!!

Satan is not perfect, but slowly is building some confidence back in her owner!! She is very pretty and a workable restoration. Soon Amy will love her so much she will never let her go!!

Rob
 

Mosesatm

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 18, 2005
Messages
9,178
All,
Steve (mechanical guy) Rob, Amy, and Mike Godwin had another "go" at Satan today. She is still a “cool” girl, and Steve donated a single diaphragm distributor with a Pertronix conversion to her. Steve did some fine-tuning and Rob was all over her back window that quit working. I donated a control valve to her power steering and we got power in both directions now. Steve and Rob had a great time under her with tranny fluid all over ourselves….

Steve has two beautiful Mustangs!! A black 65 Fastback with 17 inch wheels, a five speed, and Shelby taillights. A red 65 or 66 Coupe with dual redline tires and red interior. WOW! And a lift for working on cars!! I WANT a lift!! I new friend who will never be offended by my huge “outdoor” voice. He is a bit hard of hearing….. What a great day!!

She still needs a better power steering pump and we have a nagging exhaust leak. Mike G and Amy are tackling that another day. Mike’s engine work is superb. The engine is quiet and smooth. And he did this all on a “house” call. Thanks Mike!!

Satan is not perfect, but slowly is building some confidence back in her owner!! She is very pretty and a workable restoration. Soon Amy will love her so much she will never let her go!!

Rob

If the exhaust leak is near a front or rear cylinder I may be able to help you resolve it since I had the same problem with one of Ford's "better ideas".

Unless the gaskets are the perfect length you may need to cut them between cylinder pairs and glue them on the manifolds with a high-temp sealant, like the copper stuff.
 

mechanicalguy48

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Joined
Dec 8, 2008
Messages
77
Location
Poulsbo Washington
Yeah , we did replace the donut on that drivers side hoping that was it but it wasnt. So then Rob and I took a power steering fluid bath under satan. In the end she succumbed to us but that power steering valve was a bugger to get in and replace. We have a few more tricks to make that girl behave that we will try on her the next time. She seemed to be running well when she left , but I havent heard from Amy yet. That exhaust leak is just annoying is all.
Rob I have three mustangs ,,,, the cal special was on the side of the house under a tarp. I have a lift and you have a wife ,,,, and one that likes cars ,,,, wanna trade ? Dang my ex's never understood. Your a lucky guy.
 

Mosesatm

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Joined
Jan 18, 2005
Messages
9,178
Yeah , we did replace the donut on that drivers side hoping that was it but it wasnt. So then Rob and I took a power steering fluid bath under satan. In the end she succumbed to us but that power steering valve was a bugger to get in and replace. We have a few more tricks to make that girl behave that we will try on her the next time. She seemed to be running well when she left , but I havent heard from Amy yet. That exhaust leak is just annoying is all.
Rob I have three mustangs ,,,, the cal special was on the side of the house under a tarp. I have a lift and you have a wife ,,,, and one that likes cars ,,,, wanna trade ? Dang my ex's never understood. Your a lucky guy.

If the exhaust manifold has the cutout in it that is shown on the attached photo the leak may be coming from there. There is so little metal at the corner near the notch that unless the gasket is perfectly made it won't seal near that corner. Starting the bolt installation at the front creates a rear leak, and starting in the rear creates a front leak.

Starting in the middle and working both ways should work but in my case it didn't so I cut up the gaskets and basically ended up installing 4 small gaskets instead of 1 large gasket per side. I then adhered them to the manifolds with thick copper sealant. Worked great.
 

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CougarCJ

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Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
2,216
Ford did not use exhaust manifold gaskets from the factory.

Two clean surfaces and some high temperature gasket cement is all that is needed.

The lack of exhaust manifold gaskets allows the manifolds to act as heat sinks and dissipates heat through the exhaust system.
 

franklinair

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Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Messages
4,744
I've never had to use exhaust manifold gaskets.

Neil
(Got back from Cincinatti today)
 
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robert campbell

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Apr 10, 2007
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4,322
And me, have always used a gasket for exhaust manifolds and never had a problem.

Steve, Rob, and Mike will get to the bottom of this..... something simple, but yup it has to torture us!!

Rob
 
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