1968 Thoughts on a recently introduced EFI system

[p51]

Just a bit more info on the $795 EFI setup from FiTech...

http://www.jegs.com/p/FITech-Fuel-I...t-EFI-400-HP-Throttle-Bodies/3539375/10002/-1

Note: The Jegs ad says that it *does* support timing control. But the info (posted previously) says it doesn't. Not clear which is correct. My guess (and it is only a guess) is that it is the same TBI hw but with a different sw load that limits the functionality (also possibly not bringing out a wire or two from the TBI). This is typical in high-tech products where you are trying to segment the market but don't want to support multiple hw platforms... loading different sw on a single hw platform is a whole lot easier than keeping inventory on a whole bunch of hw designs... but again, this is just a guess...

Also, in reading some of the threads there are a few people having trouble getting cold starts (meaning below 50F) dialed in. From what I've read this is typical of aftermarket self-learning EFI systems. Learning does not kick in until engine temps are >~150F so cold start tuning for the engine has to be done somewhat by hand (eg setting AFR targets, etc) under cold temp conditions on each engine case-by-case, esp if it's got radical cam, etc where the factory "cold start setup" doesn't work. Should be interesting to see how many folks have this issue - esp up in Canada. Other than that I have read of very few issues. Almost all (so far!) like the system...

Also, latest from Holley on Sniper EFI...
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/sniper_efi/

Coming in March 2016 at $999... possibly a year late and a few dollars short... but it is Holley, so...

Still thinking that there will be enough evidence on FiTech by mid-summer - easy of use, reliability, tech support - to start to at least consider it...

 

[dalorzo_f]

Good info, thanks for posting. As you note, most of the use case reviews I've seen are positive too...

 

[p51]

EFI for the carb guys... $245

Here's an interesting product that FiTech is selling based on its EFI product. A data logger to be used with a carb setup. No throttle body included... it's just their handheld, a separate sensor box, along with some sensors - according to the text and picture it looks like a MAP sensor and an O2 sensor (for AFR, shown in the product picture) are included (??). You can (probably) get RPM straight off of the coil. Not sure about what other sensors are included however... In description "Note: All sensors sold separately". Also, says it can control timing w/a CDI box.

http://www.jegs.com/p/FITech-Fuel-I...asic-and-Power-Adder-Systems/3572094/10002/-1

It *seems* like a really great idea. I just worry that a company the size of FiTech producing all these variations of a product will run into a brick wall. With all these products, tech support, quality control and inventory control could become a nightmare. I really wish them the best of luck since, if nothing else, it will force other aftermarket EFI/gauge companies to finally get onto the technology curve...

 

[p51]

I keep watching FiTech - reading the threads, etc. Here are some quasi-datapoints. To get an idea of how many units are out there, there was thread from ~August of 2015 that stated that FiTech had ~500 units out at that time. I'd guess that it's likely doubled in the last 6months (given Christmas, etc) but that is just a guess based on a statement in a old thread...

From all the threads I've been tracking almost everyone has good things to say about this setup. One big exception was a guy who did a build thread and could not get this setup to work for love nor money. He even sent the unit back and had FiTech test it for him. He finally gave up and got a refund from FiTech. My impression is that he was disappointed in the system but relatively happy about his interactions with FiTech. Here's a link to the thread.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=605736&page=41

More recently there is now an install video on Youtube. Unfortunately it does not include the "fuel command center" in the install...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVnt15xhxCw

The guy in the video is Ken Farrell who is the founder of FiTech. From my understanding he was one of the main designers behind (for better or worse) the Powerjection III originally designed by RetroTek. RetroTek was bought by Professional Products and it appears that some time after the purchase most of the designers left PP (possibly to form FiTech and wait for a non-compete agreement to expire??) IMO, PP then pretty much dropped the ball in its support of the PJIII - there were bugs in the sw that never got fixed and end users became the main source of tech support.

Update: And here is a "marketing video" on FiTech from Summit...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocCoAS-Ia0E

 

[p51]

Just some EFI FYI (for those who care)...

(1) FiTech is providing a ~10% rebate through the end of May.
http://www.jegs.com/rebates/fitech/rebate.pdf

(2) Looks like the 400HP EFI kit is coming out mid-April. This design seems to be based on the current shipping design (250HP-600HP) but with different injectors for the lower HP and with no timing control.
http://www.jegs.com/i/FITech+Fuel+I...&CAGPSPN=pla&gclid=CJmM8bbFu8sCFYqPfgodfC4NGg

(3) Looks like the direct competition - Holley Sniper EFI has been delayed (??) to June. This puts FiTech a year+ ahead on the learning curve...
http://www.jegs.com/i/Holley/510/55...&CAGPSPN=pla&gclid=CJGk4fvGu8sCFUVhfgodNQYHJg

(4) Anyone considering this should definitely read through some of the main install threads out there. Most are very positive but there have been a couple - especially one where the guy had an engine with a really radical cam (see previous post) - that have had trouble getting this to work (he finally sent back the system). From what I can glean, if the engine has too radical a cam with a very low manifold vac signal the self-learning has a hard time converging. Another fellow is having problems with the Fuel Control Center venting correctly causing fuel starvation.

 

[robert campbell]

thanks for the information!!!

Rob

 

[robert campbell]

P51,
Just got off the phone with Kirk from FITech. He indicates that will have an 8 stack injection out in the near future to compete with TMW/Borla and Ingeles. I have a customer that wants one and I may have the coin to purchase the blower version from them. With the fuel management center it will cost me about $1,500 bucks.

Might have one sooner than later!! Thanks for the information on this company. I had not hard of them until you did your research!

Rob

 

[p51]

P51,
Just got off the phone with Kirk from FITech. He indicates that will have an 8 stack injection out in the near future to compete with TMW/Borla and Ingeles. I have a customer that wants one and I may have the coin to purchase the blower version from them. With the fuel management center it will cost me about $1,500 bucks.

Might have one sooner than later!! Thanks for the information on this company. I had not hard of them until you did your research!

Rob

Rob

Very cool!

I have been reading the threads and almost all the reviews on the most popular 600HP Go-EFI system (not sure about the other systems) have been very positive. Be aware, however, that a few people who were putting this EFI on very high-performance engines (for example, with radical cams with very low vacuum signal) had problems getting it tuned. One guy who really seemed very knowledgeable had to give up on it. However, these stories seem to be the exception (literally, I've only read threads from two people that have any issues that were not self-induced).

Another note is that there does actually seem to be some issues/bugs with the Fuel Command Center (the companion sump system that removes the requirement for an efi tank). There have been a number of people that have run into problems with this and have defaulted to an efi fuel setup. Seems to be some issue about how the venting works but I'm not sure even FiTech really knows what the issue is.

I'd strongly advise reading some of the main forum threads out there about the installs before pulling the trigger. Some of the more useful ones...

Problem with the Fuel Command Center (need to go into the thread some ways to follow the issue with the FCC):
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/89-...uel-command-center-review-install-w-pics.html

Thread from the guy with the radical engine who had to give up on EFI (this thread is not just about the EFI. The FiTech discussion gets interesting around page 40)...
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=605736&page=40

Another few notes:
(1) There is a rebate available through the end of May. I think the rebate form is on the FiTech website
(2) They are way behind in shipments (four to six weeks)... evidently the popularity of this system has really taken off... possibly because of the rebates
(3) IMO these guys are doing a great job *but* they are a small company and the question comes up whether they can handle all the support needed or not.

Good luck
James

 

[robert campbell]

James,
In my conversation yesterday, their tech Kirk indicated that they cannot meet the demand currently. Both Jegs and Summit Racing are now selling them which puts you into the largest market available. And they are pretty stringent that your company is legit, so they do not have a bunch of bad products on their sites

http://www.summitracing.com/search?SortBy=DisplayPrice&SortOrder=Desc&keyword=fitech&page=2

They now have the $795 entry level which would be great on any stock or mildly modified engine (what is mild in my thoughts).

They will drive the other guys down for sure and bring this technology to a very affordable level.

Rob

 

[Batgirl89]

Hey anyone put a FITech on yet??

P51 thank you for all the info!

 

[p51]

Hey anyone put a FITech on yet??

P51 thank you for all the info!

Batgirl

I have not done anything with FiTech. But I have had a PowerJection III (PJ3) EFI system on my car. Retrotek, the company that originally designed the PJ3 was started by the same fellow who started FiTech, Ken Farrell. He sold Retrotek to Professional Products. IMO, the PJ3 was a good product but had some minor issues. After buying the design, Professional Products did not support it very well so the PJ3 really became an "also ran" in aftermarket EFI and a lot of these issues were never resolved. I think after the acquisition a lot of the original designers left the company (possibly to start FiTech).

I keep an eye on FiTech and they seem to be doing a pretty good job. The FiTech system seems to be similar to the PJ3 but with the issues ironed out. However, the fuel command center they sell does seem to have some lingering issues.

The best forum I found to read about FiTech is the Chevelle forum
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/89-...ing-tips-info-sharing-ideas-settings-etc.html

There are other forums as well... just Google them...

If you do decide to put a FiTech EFI on your car let me know before you pull the trigger and I can let you know about my experience with the PJ3... what to watch out for in the install and some ideas. Just respond to this thread and I'll do a write up.

James

 

[whodat]

What about Holley Sniper EFI?


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[p51]

What about Holley Sniper EFI?


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Whereas FiTech has been shipping units since ~03/2015, the Sniper EFI (which was originally due out in ~05/2016) apparently has now slipped until ~09/2016 (this is based solely on ship dates I just checked from Summit/Jegs). By the time Holley has a competitive product out FiTech will have had a year and a half of shipments, experience, debugging, reliability data, etc.

On the other hand w/Sniper you have the Holley brand name...

 

[Batgirl89]

we want to put it on our 68 bronco

 

[p51]

we want to put it on our 68 bronco

FiTech EFI vs Carb (just an opinion)

EFI benefits: Better throttle response, better cold starts, better gas mileage, no fuel smell, adapts to altitude and ambient temperature changes (no re-jetting, etc required). And, if you do it right you can easily switched back (~5hours) from EFI -> carb.

EFI deficits: More complicated setup – more things can go wrong or fail and diagnosing them can become difficult. Moreover if you have EFI on a classic car and take it to most shops most of the mechanics don't know where to start. Even if they are comfortable with EFI a mechanic would need to know your specific EFI kit to be able to fix or modify anything. So, you end up doing a lot of your own work. And, unless you commute a long distance in your classic car, this mod will *not* pay for itself in any reasonable amount of time.

The decision:

Yea: If you feel comfortable with computers, you like to fine tune the engine (eg A/F ratios, etc), and the above benefits of EFI are of sufficient value to you then, I'd recommend EFI. If you already know what you are doing, installing one of these kits takes no more than a day.

Nay: If you're really comfortable with carbs, or are computer-phobic, or are not willing/able to do your own diagnosis/fixing of problems then I would stay away from EFI – even the one's touted as “plug-and-go”.

The tradeoff: If you only drive your car at a given altitude in an area where there's not a lot of ambient temp changes (eg coastal CA) then, IMO, you can tune your carb to within ~10% of what you'd get with the best tuned EFI. If you drive your car under differing and extreme conditions (temp, altitude) and really don't know how to fine tune a carb then you can probably get up to 25% better avg fuel economy (eg 16mpg -> 20mpg) from EFI along with better cold starts, better throttle response, etc

If you do decide on EFI the main things to focus on are:
(1) The fuel system. This used to be the single biggest pain – having to install a high-pressure EFI fuel system. FiTech has simplified this significantly with their Fuel Command Center (FCC). With the FCC the only change you have to make (aside from installing the FCC in the engine compartment) is adding a low-pressure vent line back to the fuel tank that connects *above* the fuel level. A connection to the fuel filler tube would seem like a good spot. The caveat to this is that as of ~05/2016 some people on forums were reporting issues with the venting of the FCC.
(2) Make sure the engine has very good electrical grounds (bad grounds cause a lot more problems with EFI while carbs are almost immune to this)
(3) Make sure the engine has no vacuum leaks (again, EFI is much more sensitive to the vacuum signal)
(4) Make sure there are no exhaust leaks (can cause errors with the O2 readings)
(5) Make sure your distributor will work with the FiTech EFI. If you are using a distributor with a tach output or an MSD box you should be ok. If you are using a stock distributor, I am not sure if points will work or not. The Pertronix Ignitor 1 in a stock distributor works. Multi-spark Pertronix Ignitor 3 will *not* work – from what I've read, the multi-spark feature screws up the signal to the EFI which is used to determine timing/RPM.
(6) Make sure your EFI signaling wires are away from the spark plug wires as much as possible.
(7) Get good quality EFI high-pressure lines


Some other comments:

One of the nice things about using the FiTech + FCC is that you can switch back to a carb very easily if needed. You just need to swap a couple of fuel lines and replace the EFI TBI with the carb. The reason that this is a plus is that if you ever need to debug a problem and need to isolate whether that problem is an EFI issue or something else, it's really easy to swap back to the carb to see if the problem disappears.

The timing feature of the FiTech unit is probably something I would not use. First you have to have a “2-wire” distributor. Second, you have to be able to phase that distributor. Third, if you have the FiTech unit control timing, swapping back to a carb (for reasons noted above) becomes difficult. Finally, as far as I can tell if you have either a stock distributor or (better yet) one of the “ready to run” distributors (non-multi-spark or with a tach output) there is enough flexibility using traditional springs and stop bushing to set your timing.

Currently (07/2016) the Go-4 EFI 600HP system has been out the longest (since roughly 03/2015) has the most units sold, and has had the most “customer testing”. This is rated down to 200-250HP. For most of our stock mustangs a better choice would seem to be the Go-Street EFI 400HP which has smaller injectors that would have their “sweet spot” more aligned with a stock 289/302 1968 engine. The downside is that Go-Street EFI 400HP is newer (since ~04/2016) and so has had much less “customer testing” done on it. But it is less expensive.

 

[robert campbell]

James,
Great info!! Thank you! One other aspect I would think is better hot starting on very hot days when percolation can occur with a carb.

Rob

 

[whodat]

I really want to just go EFI with no tank mods. I thought I saw that on Gearz tv show.


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[p51]

From what I can tell Holley is (finally) shipping the Sniper EFI... a year and a half after FiTech started shipping their unit...

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sne-550-511

No installation reviews on-line yet but found an unboxing video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lg3yOlyd3w

 

[p51]

Just FYI. Here is an install thread on the Holley Sniper EFI. Interestingly this guy previously installed a FiTech EFI unit. His FiTech EFI install thread is worth the read as well...

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/89-efi/928770-holley-sniper-install-review-replaced-fitech.html

Also another interesting tidbit. FiTech has just introduced a rebate of $100 through the end of the year on their unit that directly competes with the Sniper EFI.

So now you've got a FiTech with 1.5yrs of shipments for $895 vs a newly introduced (but about 9months late from initial est release date) Holley Sniper EFI with the Holley brand name for $999.

Gotta love competition :grin:

 

[robert campbell]

All,
Great article on a FiTech install on an old Chevy Truck. Kinda gives you a great picture of its capability and how easy it is to tune. And to think it replaced a 1 barrel carb and could still self tune itself for this application.

Of note this installation does not use the FiTech fuel management system, but an inline outside the tank fuel pump and return line. I personally want to use the fuel management center option that mounts under the hood and does not require a return line.

Rob

http://www.streetmusclemag.com/tech...ing-our-fuel-budget-under-control-with-fitech