Transmission help!!

[robert campbell]

Rob/all,

Getting closer. The engine now fires easily and consistently. Made sure the tranny has the proper amount of fluid. Put the rear axel on jack stands before trying to put it in gear this time. Started her up and let her get warm.

Then dropped the gear shift into reverse. Yeahhh!!! No clunk and engine kill!!!

Now when I put the brakes on while it's in gear it won't hold idle and dies. It does the same thing in first, second and drive, too.

I have a new vacuum tube from the hard line coming out of the C-4 tranny going to a two port connector that is threaded into the rear of the intake manifold. The other port goes to the power brakes. This is the same setup as before putting the new engine in.

I tried disconnecting the power brake line and capped off the vacuum port to it. It still behaves the same when I apply the brakes. It stumbles and dies.

The idle is set to what I would consider a fair rpm. It's not loping and almost dying in park. Not at all. It's nice and smooth.

It's just not happy under load.

Any ideas? Maybe the modulator valve is bad? I DID put a higher stall speed toque converter in (1600-2100rpm).
Also, the cam is 222/232 and I'm assuming I don't pull as much vacuum as the old 302 that I took out. How do you get more vacuum?

Thanks, Jeff

Jeff,
Read the above carefully. So you completley unplugged the the vacuum assist brake booster from the manifold. You have a nice idle at say 800 or 900 RPM in park/neutral hot normal temp.

Can you put it in gear with a block on the tires or the "e" brake on? Does it pull down to 600 or 700 and idle ok?

Are you in park when you press on the brakes and it dies?

Forgive me for saying, but pressing the brake without the vacumm assist cylinder connected should have no affect, certainly at a stop in your driveway/garage.

The higher stall converter should actually allow you to idle a bit easier in gear.

I would assume if you hook up a vacumm guage to the same port you had the vacumm assist booter you should have between 14 to 15 pound in neutral at hot idle in park. If you put it in gear and drag it below 800 RPM it may get to the 10 to 12 range with a big cam.

I would like to know what initial timing you have with the vacumm unhooked at the distrubuter and plugged off. Will it idle with the vacumm line off the distrubuter? I need to ask, what kind of a distributer?? If it won't idle with the line disconnected we need more advance on the initial.

Tell me what ditrubuter you have and what your initial setting is with the line off if you have a vacumm line.

Rob

 

[rvrtrash]

Rob/all,


Now when I put the brakes on while it's in gear it won't hold idle and dies. It does the same thing in first, second and drive, too.

Thanks, Jeff

I had the same thing happen to me with a car I owned a long time ago. It had the dual advance dist. and I had the vac. lines backwards. :embarass:

Steve

 

[robert campbell]

Steve,
I would have never thought of that!!! Hope that works!

Rob

 

[miller511]

I had the same thing happen to me with a car I owned a long time ago. It had the dual advance dist. and I had the vac. lines backwards. :embarass:

Steve

Steve,

I have the dual vacuum line distributor but only using the one that was used in my previous setup(It is stock...and I'm planning to replace it at some point). When you say you had the vacuum lines backwards, were you using both ports on the distributor? Where does the second one go to?
One thing that I'm not connected to is the thermal vacuum switch that threads into the thermostat housing. Maybe I need to reconnect that?

-Jeff

 

[miller511]

Jeff,
Read the above carefully. So you completley unplugged the the vacuum assist brake booster from the manifold. You have a nice idle at say 800 or 900 RPM in park/neutral hot normal temp.

Can you put it in gear with a block on the tires or the "e" brake on? Does it pull down to 600 or 700 and idle ok?

Are you in park when you press on the brakes and it dies?

Forgive me for saying, but pressing the brake without the vacumm assist cylinder connected should have no affect, certainly at a stop in your driveway/garage.

The higher stall converter should actually allow you to idle a bit easier in gear.

I would assume if you hook up a vacumm guage to the same port you had the vacumm assist booter you should have between 14 to 15 pound in neutral at hot idle in park. If you put it in gear and drag it below 800 RPM it may get to the 10 to 12 range with a big cam.

I would like to know what initial timing you have with the vacumm unhooked at the distrubuter and plugged off. Will it idle with the vacumm line off the distrubuter? I need to ask, what kind of a distributer?? If it won't idle with the line disconnected we need more advance on the initial.

Tell me what ditrubuter you have and what your initial setting is with the line off if you have a vacumm line.

Rob

Rob,

It will die if I put it in gear on the ground or if I hold the brake in gear up on stands.

I did put it in reverse and back it out of the driveway while being light on the brake...it behaves as though the torque converter is grabbing at idle. Maybe I purchased the incorect one? (it's rated at 1600-2200rpm)

It idles fine in park with the brake on. And with the rear wheels up on jack stands it runs through the gears fine. But, if I hit the brakes (giving it a load) it stumbles and dies (with and without the brake booster being connected).

I bought a vacuum gauge... just need to hook it up to get some numbers.

The distributor is stock.

I'm starting to suspect that it's the torque converter. That's the only component that's different...well, other than the 400+ hp motor that's now under the hood

Thanks again guys for your help.

-Jeff

 

[rvrtrash]

Steve,

I have the dual vacuum line distributor but only using the one that was used in my previous setup(It is stock...and I'm planning to replace it at some point). When you say you had the vacuum lines backwards, were you using both ports on the distributor? Where does the second one go to?
One thing that I'm not connected to is the thermal vacuum switch that threads into the thermostat housing. Maybe I need to reconnect that?

-Jeff

One port goes to the intake manifold and one goes to the carb. I think the front dist. port is for the carb, but I'll have to go look at my Mach 1 to verify that. I had the hoses on the wrong ports and the only way to get the engine to not die at a light was to keep it in neutral, rev it up and drop it into gear. The cop that saw me do it wasn't impressed in the least. The thermal switch in the thermostat housing is for fast idle when the engine is hot. I wouldn't worry about that at this point.

Steve

 

[robert campbell]

Jeff,
I feel that the dual vacuum distributor is not a good match for you engine. What is your initial timing set at?? With no vacuum on the distributor.

I wish I lived close by. This could be a combination of carb and distributor problems. I do not think it is a torque converter problem. This engine will like a lot of initial advance. I bet in the 12 to 14 BTDC range. You should always keep your total in the 38 to 42 BTDC range. If this were my car I would spring for and after market distributor with an adjustable curve inside. Both my 428 cobra jet and my Weber carbed 289 run between 14 and 18 degrees of initial advance. I have shortened the centrifugal curve to keep the total in the 40 range at 3,000 RPM.

You can re-curve a stock distributor if you want a stock look. I think it would be a lot more spendy.

Do this for me. Start the car with the vacuum to the brakes unhooked. Unhook all vacuum to the distributor and plug off. Get it nice a warm with the choke all the way off. Move the initial timing up to about 12 to 14 degrees BTDC. The engine should speed up and idle smoother. Reset your throttle stop screw to about 800 or 900 RPM. You may want to reset the idle screws slightly to get your highest, most free sounding idle. You can also use a vacuum gauge to get the most vacuum possible. Now drop it in gear. Will it hold idle in gear?? If so that is where the engine likes to run. Big cams like a bit more initial advance. If it won’t run, then I would suspect carb issues or an unfound vacuum leak. Did the engine come as a long block with the intake installed? My thoughts could be an intake gasket to head leak. Sometimes the newer carb to intake gaskets are not compatible to a stock Ford 1-inch carb spacer. Do you have one of those in the equation?

Please get us some vacuum readings at hot idle.

Rob

 

[miller511]

Thanks guys. Will get some data and also try the things suggested in the next couple of days and let you know. Really appreciate the help!!!

 

[miller511]

OK. Got busy with the timing light and the vacuum gauge tonight. I disconnected all vacuum components and plugged them all off....transmission modulator, power brakes, and distributor. And also plugged off the PCV connection to the back of the carb. I unscrewed the dual port vacuum fitting on the rear of the intake manifold and screwed in the fitting that came with my vacuum gauge. I connected the vacuum gauge and also the timing light. Fired up the CS and got it warm. Pointed the timing light (yes, the dial was set to zero) and the initial timing was at 35 BTDC!!!! and vacuum was reading 16 inches of mercury (HG). I loosened the distributor and turned the distributor slowly down to 15 BTDC (I also set the idle up a bit so it wouldn't die). At this point the vacuum reading was 12 HG and the engine started stumbling and popping.

Yes. I do have a 1" spacer between the carb and intake...it's a new Edelbrock phenolic.

Do I have a (big) vacuum leak somewhere? If so, I guess I try spraying carb cleaner in the likely areas while it's running to see if the engine idle changes?

Thanks, Jeff

 

[Mosesatm]

Here are a couple drawings Paul N. posted awhile back.

One port goes to the intake manifold and one goes to the carb. I think the front dist. port is for the carb, but I'll have to go look at my Mach 1 to verify that. I had the hoses on the wrong ports and the only way to get the engine to not die at a light was to keep it in neutral, rev it up and drop it into gear. The cop that saw me do it wasn't impressed in the least. The thermal switch in the thermostat housing is for fast idle when the engine is hot. I wouldn't worry about that at this point.

Steve

 

[miller511]

Thanks Arlie,

I printed these out.

-Jeff

 

[robert campbell]

OK. Got busy with the timing light and the vacuum gauge tonight. I disconnected all vacuum components and plugged them all off....transmission modulator, power brakes, and distributor. And also plugged off the PCV connection to the back of the carb. I unscrewed the dual port vacuum fitting on the rear of the intake manifold and screwed in the fitting that came with my vacuum gauge. I connected the vacuum gauge and also the timing light. Fired up the CS and got it warm. Pointed the timing light (yes, the dial was set to zero) and the initial timing was at 35 BTDC!!!! and vacuum was reading 16 inches of mercury (HG). I loosened the distributor and turned the distributor slowly down to 15 BTDC (I also set the idle up a bit so it wouldn't die). At this point the vacuum reading was 12 HG and the engine started stumbling and popping.

Yes. I do have a 1" spacer between the carb and intake...it's a new Edelbrock phenolic.

Do I have a (big) vacuum leak somewhere? If so, I guess I try spraying carb cleaner in the likely areas while it's running to see if the engine idle changes?

Thanks, Jeff

Jeff,
So when all this was happening did you have a hot idle in the 800 to 900 RPM range? If you did then a couple questions come to mind.

1. The 347 may be based on a newer block. Did you install the timing case cover or install the vibration damper?
2. If you did I would suspect that the pointer on the timing case cove is not compatible with degree calibration on the damper.
3. What kind of carb do you have?
4. Did you install the intake manifold?

Do this. Take the number one spark plug out and the distributor cap off. Roll the engine so you know the rotor is pointing roughly at the number one wire on the cap. Now get a plastic straw and put it in the number one spark plug hole. You may need an assistant, but roll the motor back and forth and using the straw, judge to the best of you ability “TDC” for that piston. Certainly not an exact science and there is a few degrees on crank movement that will produce no movement on the straw as it “passes or switches” from going up and going down. Kinda judge it the best you can.

All the while as you are rolling the motor with you chest smashed against the top of the radiator and your back starting to ache, you will also have a view of the pointer and the damper. The quest is to see if TDC on the damper and the pointer are anywhere near each other. If not after all you moving, put a chalk mark on the timing cover somewhere. Near so you now have a vague idea where TDC actual is.

Let me know what you find out.

Timing on a performance engine is not an exact science. Different combinations of compression, cams, and use of the engine will yield a wide variety of settings. You engine more than likely will “like” more initial advance and develop more pounds of vacuum with more initial.

Don’t go out and buy a distributor yet. Let’s see if we can solve the running in the driveway issue first. I doubt that the engine will like stock distributor, but it should run fine in the driveway and go in and out of gear with and not die. DUH Rob!!!

One other thing I experience recently was a 428 motor that was just running like crap at idle, timing bouncing all over the place and the timing light flat going out for 10 seconds or more. I am not a believer in fouled spark plugs, but that was exactly what it was. We put a set across this seldom ran engine and it ran like a dream. I would have never guessed that.

Rob

 

[miller511]

Thanks Rob,

Yeah, after last nights info gathering, I wondered if maybe the timing cover (My old one from the 302) maybe had the pointer in a location that is not where the timing tick marks are on the new damper. Yes, I installed the timing cover and the damper, not the place where I bought the long block (My long block came as a rolling assembly...block and heads assembled. I installed the intake manifold).

Will verify piston one TDC to the timing pointer. If it's off, I'll be looking for a new timing tape to put on the damper.

-Jeff

 

[robert campbell]

Jeff,
You sound such much like me. Nothing is ever easy, but I can tell you are determined!! And you end up being a wealth of knowledge in the "lessons learned" department!! I know TDC with a plastic straw sounds pretty hokie, but it will get you within a degree or two. Once there slap on the tape and you are good to go. I have a tape on all my cars. Rough up the surface with sandpaper and wipe the damper with alcohol or some other degreaser. I have had a couple tapes take flight after a few miles....

Rob

Rob

 

[miller511]

Rob,

I was explaining my current issue with a buddy from work. He said check the distributor and double-check that it's not off a tooth...will do this along with the checking TDC on piston one tonight...stay tuned.

Man, if that's the issue, I'll need to change my avatar icon to a pic of Homer Simpson slapping his forehead...Doh!!!

-Jeff

 

[robert campbell]

Jeff,
Very well could be off a tooth if your damper and pointer are not compatible. The straw trick will get you there. Once you determin where TDC is, you can look at the rotor number one wire relationship on the cap. But even off one tooth you can spin the base of the distributer to compenste and bring it back in. In your case when you reduced the timing from 35 to around 12 you where spinning the distributer vacuum pots away from the thermo housing. Looks real silly, but you can spin the distributer until the pots are pointing at the washer bag area. It will run just fine. Looks dorky. Some air conditioning cars won't let this happen as brackets get in the way

Your problem sounds like incompatible damper to pointer marks. But you are already figured that out.

So don't change your handle to Homer yet!!! I have already earned that many times over!!!

Rob

 

[miller511]

Rob,

The timing pointer is correct. The straw trick to determine TDC helped verify where I am at.

Now I'm wondering why the engine runs at 35 BTDC!! and at 14 BTDC is coughs and pops and eventually dies.

Hmmm, back to the torque converter... I suspect there is something wrong with it, or the tranny from the initial "thunk" when I very first put it in gear. My logic is that there is a load on the engine at startup in park. And then more of a load when It's in reverse or drive. Maybe this makes no sense. Just don't know why it won't run below about 20 BTDC. With the two 13L weights in the distributor that'll give me total advance of 46 degrees. Way too much, correct?

I think I will take the torque converter out and bolt the tranny back up (so I have something for the starter to bolt to) and see if the ol' CS runs down where it should at 14-16 BTDC.

Let me know what you think.

Oh, also, to answer your previous question. The carb is a new Barry Grant 4-barrel Speed Demon 750 w/ annular boosters.

-Jeff

 

[robert campbell]

Jeff,
I would expect an air leak or a misadjusted carb before the torque converter. To need 35 degees of advance just to hold idle is very unusual. DUH Rob, Jeff knows that!! At the same time eliminating the torque converter due to the problem during the install will eliminate that thought. Unless there was severe damage during those first couple runs, the conveter is "sorta" just spinning and running the front pump. Maybe the front pump is hurt very bad and seizing. It can be changed without getting into the internals of the automatic.

If the front pump is severly damaged you may want to drop the pan and look for particulates in the fluid....

I hope this is an airleak/carb adjustment problem.

Rob

 

[miller511]

Thanks Rob,

Heading down to Kragen's to get some carb cleaner...

On a lighter note re; headlines of today- I feel soooo sorry for Paris Hilton!

....just kidding ;-)

-Jeff

 

[robert campbell]

Jeff,
We could start a whole new thread on our sympathy for Paris....... Piece of shit needs to spend the whole time.... I am so above the law..... Only the common people go to jail.

Gee, do you know how I feel......

Rob