C160223
Well-known member
the "sticky" thread Jason started with the GT/CS production stats gathered from the "elite" marti reports? Was it moved or deleted?
COMMUNITY
1968 GT/CS & HCS
2007+ GT/CS
1966-1967 HCS
-
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what happen to?
- Thread starter C160223
- Start date
390cs68rcode
Well-known member
that kinda stinks.
the 428 CJ site has the following info listed but we cannot list data on this site that was paid for?
??????????????????????
the 428 CJ site has the following info listed but we cannot list data on this site that was paid for?
??????????????????????
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joedls
Well-known member
I'd like it, Arlie.
Thanks,
Joe
Thanks,
Joe
Midnight Special
Well-known member
John McGilvary
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2006
- Messages
- 321
The information Jason worked so hard to get is going be included in Pauls book, right ?
John
John
P
PNewitt
Guest
I feel that I should explain something here, since Jon mentioned that I had a hand in this removal.
It has nothing to do whether Jason "worked so hard" on this list, but it's a matter of whether this posted information had compromised the copyright(s) that is held by Kevin Marti.
I notified Kevin, ONLY as an advisory--not as a "demand"--that this information posted on the internet may compromise his tightly-held copyrights with Ford. It was then up to Kevin to decide what to do from there.
Kevin Marti spend thousands of dollars, and lots of difficult legal work with Ford to get the numbers data that he has today for thousands of Mustangs. This is his business. Each and every Marti Report also has a copyright at the bottom of each form, too. Copyrights are serious business, and there have been civil lawsuits over them.
A few months ago (for a lot of money) we purchased my "wish list" of GT/CS data for the book, which included the engine/transmission numbers, but much, much more, such as numbers of cars sent to each DSO, options (in detail), interior colors and type, etc. etc., along with breakdowns by CS or HCS.
When we recieved this information, we were to abide by strict guidelines of it's use, and how it was to be presented in the book.
Since I have invested in this material, I have a stake in protecting that investment. In no way was this a spiteful act; purely a legal one, protecting that investment. I apologize if this has offended anyone, but I hope you see it from my point of view--and that it was Kevin's decision to take this action or not.
Any other author or magazine writer could visit this site, pick up the numbers and be paid for that article. I've seen this happen many times with my own numbers from my 1989 book (which of course, have changed since the Marti report). Seeing this data in another Mustang book--before mine could be printed would compromise part of the value of my book.
I hope that you understand my position, and so here is my honest explaination.
Thank You,
Paul.
It has nothing to do whether Jason "worked so hard" on this list, but it's a matter of whether this posted information had compromised the copyright(s) that is held by Kevin Marti.
I notified Kevin, ONLY as an advisory--not as a "demand"--that this information posted on the internet may compromise his tightly-held copyrights with Ford. It was then up to Kevin to decide what to do from there.
Kevin Marti spend thousands of dollars, and lots of difficult legal work with Ford to get the numbers data that he has today for thousands of Mustangs. This is his business. Each and every Marti Report also has a copyright at the bottom of each form, too. Copyrights are serious business, and there have been civil lawsuits over them.
A few months ago (for a lot of money) we purchased my "wish list" of GT/CS data for the book, which included the engine/transmission numbers, but much, much more, such as numbers of cars sent to each DSO, options (in detail), interior colors and type, etc. etc., along with breakdowns by CS or HCS.
When we recieved this information, we were to abide by strict guidelines of it's use, and how it was to be presented in the book.
Since I have invested in this material, I have a stake in protecting that investment. In no way was this a spiteful act; purely a legal one, protecting that investment. I apologize if this has offended anyone, but I hope you see it from my point of view--and that it was Kevin's decision to take this action or not.
Any other author or magazine writer could visit this site, pick up the numbers and be paid for that article. I've seen this happen many times with my own numbers from my 1989 book (which of course, have changed since the Marti report). Seeing this data in another Mustang book--before mine could be printed would compromise part of the value of my book.
I hope that you understand my position, and so here is my honest explaination.
Thank You,
Paul.
John McGilvary
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2006
- Messages
- 321
Thanks Paul,
Thats just what I thought was happening. I understand your position fully.
No offence was ever taken by me or anyone I can think of.
John
mustang man
Member
Hi Arlie
could i get a copy if you have it
thanks
Joe
could i get a copy if you have it
thanks
Joe
68gt390
Well-known member
Arlie;
I'd like a copy of it if you don't mind.
I have one question in regards to this - well maybe 2. Maybe I have all this wrong but, I pay Kevin Marti for my "Marti report" on my car. I can show that marti report with my car without any problem correct because it has all the Marti acknowledgements etc. etc. But, I can't share that information with a private person if I want to even though I've paid for that report? I don't understand the problem as long as when you publish those figures/numbers you give credit to where they came from (i,e, "copied from "MartiAutoWorks").
I don't know, I'm not a patent, copy right lawyer so I'd like to have that explained? To be perfectly honest with you those figures could be copied by anybody who reads my "Marti Repot" that is displayed with my car or any other Mustang that has their report displayed.
Don
I'd like a copy of it if you don't mind.
I have one question in regards to this - well maybe 2. Maybe I have all this wrong but, I pay Kevin Marti for my "Marti report" on my car. I can show that marti report with my car without any problem correct because it has all the Marti acknowledgements etc. etc. But, I can't share that information with a private person if I want to even though I've paid for that report? I don't understand the problem as long as when you publish those figures/numbers you give credit to where they came from (i,e, "copied from "MartiAutoWorks").
I don't know, I'm not a patent, copy right lawyer so I'd like to have that explained? To be perfectly honest with you those figures could be copied by anybody who reads my "Marti Repot" that is displayed with my car or any other Mustang that has their report displayed.
Don
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P
PNewitt
Guest
"...and I don't even play a lawyer on TV!" LOL!!
I left the decision of the legal ins-and-outs up to Kevin, and Jon to decide what to do.
There is a certain amount of "fair use" when you buy your report. Presenting it to your friends; shown at car shows, etc., is fine. Buying a Marti report doesn't mean that you "own" the data. My purchase of the data is for the specific use of it in my book, but I don't "own" it, either. Having it posted on the internet compromises that investment.
It's no longer a private sharing when it's posted on the internet. That is similar to publishing. A similar problem exists when people use movie clips for YouTube posts; and, YouTube got into trouble from the studios.
So, like I said, it was Kevin's decision to take whatever action he chose to take.
I hope this makes sense...
Paul N.
I left the decision of the legal ins-and-outs up to Kevin, and Jon to decide what to do.
There is a certain amount of "fair use" when you buy your report. Presenting it to your friends; shown at car shows, etc., is fine. Buying a Marti report doesn't mean that you "own" the data. My purchase of the data is for the specific use of it in my book, but I don't "own" it, either. Having it posted on the internet compromises that investment.
It's no longer a private sharing when it's posted on the internet. That is similar to publishing. A similar problem exists when people use movie clips for YouTube posts; and, YouTube got into trouble from the studios.
So, like I said, it was Kevin's decision to take whatever action he chose to take.
I hope this makes sense...
Paul N.
Midnight Special
Well-known member
...Well in that context, we need to delete the "Post your Marti Report Here" thread as well. For that matter - delete all statistical and helpful information until we sort out who to credit (or pay) for what...
I can see you or someone maybe asking Jason to cite his sources with due respect for his efforts in educating we enthusiasts. But instead - we blow the wistle and risk another "Ford vs Mustangs Plus" scenario here at home.
I mean - legally, you're right. But what's the point of having this site (except socially) if we can't repeat data and answer questions without whipping out the checkbook while standing on one foot in a bed of egg shells?
If you enforce every copyright law to its extreme interpretation - None of us should be here posting anything that was created by someone else! The liability is too great. Think about it...
I can see you or someone maybe asking Jason to cite his sources with due respect for his efforts in educating we enthusiasts. But instead - we blow the wistle and risk another "Ford vs Mustangs Plus" scenario here at home.
I mean - legally, you're right. But what's the point of having this site (except socially) if we can't repeat data and answer questions without whipping out the checkbook while standing on one foot in a bed of egg shells?
If you enforce every copyright law to its extreme interpretation - None of us should be here posting anything that was created by someone else! The liability is too great. Think about it...
P
PNewitt
Guest
I realize that this stirs up the "gosh darnit" factor, like a lawyer keeping kids out of a playground so they don't accidently get bark pieces up their noses....LOL.
The point here is that Kevin Marti paid thousands of dollars for that data. It's from reel-to-reel IBM tapes at Ford (circa 1967-72). He struggled very hard to get that data. It took years for him to get what he did, and he must adhere to Ford's rules about how it is dispersed. Yes, I know, Tim, I also think it's like "brow-beating the innocent", but it's the rules, and well, we need to play by those rules on this one subject...It also seems like a loose cannon of legalities, but it's not really that bad.
I can understand the thought: "hey, it's amongst friends here, no harm intended". But posting here is actually posting to the WHOLE, entire world. AND....Anyone can quote what anyone posts here (text or photos, etc.) in a book, or magazine article, etc., since it's like public domain.
I would prefer this be done later, but Jon can approach Kevin to see if and what he could use in terms of basic GT/CS data for the history part of this website. But, that is up to Kevin--and Jon, too. Maybe when my book is out, I can arrange to have some snippets of data used like a web review--with Kevin's permission.
Paul N.
Midnight Special
Well-known member
...So be it. But for the record - anything I share here; be it photos, artwork, research or day to day reflection is open for use to anyone for any purpose and for pleasure, not for my profit. Otherwise - I would propose Jon to initiate a "Post your PayPal Account # Here" thread for answers to specific questions...
;-)
;-)
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rvrtrash
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2003
- Messages
- 3,665
I always thought a copyright was to keep other people from profiting from your work. I believe if someone buys information, i.e. a Marti Report, that information is then theirs to do with as they see fit, providing they aren't profiting from it. Otherwise if someone here asked a question on wiring as an example, I wouldn't be able to look in my wiring diagrams I bought and answer their question without risking being sued.
Arlie, could I get a copy of the Excel file also--just because?
Steve
Arlie, could I get a copy of the Excel file also--just because?
Steve
case12
Well-known member
Copyright law on the internet is still debated. Using copyrighted data is serious business though. The issue can be made clear contractually - such as being given premission by Kevin to use the data in a certain way (like Paul's book, or the web site). However, I suspect that even Kevin is limited in what he can publish (or how it is published) by the license he has with FORD. Kevin would not want to take that risk (it is his business), so he licenses FORD under certain terms which he must abide by, which if not met by him or others can be breach of contract. Paul is in the same boat when he publishes his book. Additionally FORD has the copyright on "GT/CS" and "California Special". These used in a context to sell something (for profit of not) could bring out the FORD licensing "police". It is all a matter of risk that the person using the copyright info wants to take. You Tube could get shut down because a bunch of kids use copyright material - that is a lot of risk to Google. My two cents. Casey
Midnight Special
Well-known member
Thanks for clarifying Casey. My next question would be:
How far do we want to go?
No more posted wiring diagrams, Marti reports, or decoding door tag info for prospective owners anymore for fear of our new "site police"??
I guess to be safe, we should just come up w/ a one-size fits all answer to everything that can read:
Buy a Marti report - $40.00
Buy Paul's book - $100.00 (see ad)
Buy a Chiltons manual - $60.00
etc etc...
Otherwise; feel free to post pictures of your beautiful restorations so long as you don't tell us how you did it.........
How far do we want to go?
No more posted wiring diagrams, Marti reports, or decoding door tag info for prospective owners anymore for fear of our new "site police"??
I guess to be safe, we should just come up w/ a one-size fits all answer to everything that can read:
Buy a Marti report - $40.00
Buy Paul's book - $100.00 (see ad)
Buy a Chiltons manual - $60.00
etc etc...
Otherwise; feel free to post pictures of your beautiful restorations so long as you don't tell us how you did it.........
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case12
Well-known member
All good questions. Somebody out there makes a profit (or at least revenue) off something that they copyright. If someone else copies it, then they loose profit. The person who has been damaged (lets say FORD in this case) could require the person to cease using the material, or in this case ask the webmaster to take it off. That is best case, and probably typical. Worse case could be something like You Tube.
Copying something that has been copyrighted is, of course, illegal without the owners permission. One could look at the "spirit" of the law, and then assess the risk to their business or person for using that material without permission. It's mostly about risk when that decision is made.
Trivia - did you know that copyright covers all kinds of things, even including advertisements, and pictures put into the public domain, like a magazine - ex; even a picture of a GE radio in a magazine from 1901 is still GE copyright.
I am not advocating either position, as to not share info would make us all unhappy (including me), or sharing information could break a copyright. Likely, the typical case is that the webmaster would be asked to take it off the site. (I have seen this with Brad Barnett site - pictures disappear at request of FORD).
My two cents, Casey
Copying something that has been copyrighted is, of course, illegal without the owners permission. One could look at the "spirit" of the law, and then assess the risk to their business or person for using that material without permission. It's mostly about risk when that decision is made.
Trivia - did you know that copyright covers all kinds of things, even including advertisements, and pictures put into the public domain, like a magazine - ex; even a picture of a GE radio in a magazine from 1901 is still GE copyright.
I am not advocating either position, as to not share info would make us all unhappy (including me), or sharing information could break a copyright. Likely, the typical case is that the webmaster would be asked to take it off the site. (I have seen this with Brad Barnett site - pictures disappear at request of FORD).
My two cents, Casey
390cs68rcode
Well-known member
good points casey. Still makes me wonder why the 428 site has all the data posted (in more detail than I had). Looks like they just linked up Marti's website.
