1968 Who has Green Hornet Questions??

[PNewitt]

Since I'm working on the GH chapter for the book right now, I would like to see if anyone has questions about the Green Hornet Shelby Prototype (EXP-500). In the spirit of your involvement with the book, I'm tossing this out to you....

I've come across a few new things in my research, and I can divulge a couple to you:

1. The people that bought the car in 1970 had it painted a lighter ivy gold color. Probably a 1971 LTD green-gold. Yuk.

2. It's definately the GT/SC prototype car. I found from photos of the GH resto that the GT/Sport Coupe prototype was built sometime between Sept and Dec. 1967. Some blueprints I recently got pre-date a part that was noticed on the GH restoration--originally on the GT/SC, to pin down that time frame.

3. The Little Red car was definately crushed. Confirmed by a conversation with Fred Goodell and Martin Euler, many years ago.

4. This was an A/C car according to the build sheet, but there was never A/C in the car.

5. I'm going to ask about why the GH has later rear reflectors.

Anything you might like to ask is welcome. I'm going to try and get the exact color code for the GH as well.

As a side note, Martin Euler (in Michigan, who restored the GH 14 yrs. ago) is today restoring Boss 429 Mustangs to concours quality.

thanks!
Paul.

 

[Stathy]

Paul, you do realize this offer to answer questions is like discovering the Holy Grail for myself.

First off thank you for answering the AC question. I noticed also on the build sheet that this was originally suppose to have been installed in the car (see my cries for help on an earlier post titled AC Controls).

You have also helped me tremendously on trying to dial in an exact paint code.
I think you've steered me in the right direction but if you do happen to receive an exacting match I would love to know!

Most of my questions get answered through viewing any picture I can find on this car. I'm pretty sure I have every one of them.
Will you be releasing any that haven't been published before?

Here is my only question (for today :wink: ): In trying to document the components needed to mimic the GH's front end I cannot seem to figure out what color the front springs are painted (I know what everyone is thinking...). I know the shocks are red and the rear springs are yellow. (probably Koni Classics) In the spirit the GH I would like to try and keep this tribute as accurate as possible. As you once told me "lets do this right".
That wasn't so hard?
Thanks Paul!
Cheers
Stan

 

[PNewitt]

Hi Stan,

I knew I'd pique your interest.

My best guess is that since this was a prototype Shelby, the original production 390 springs were there to begin with. Fred probably had them yanked out and some off-the-shelf KR spec'd coils dropped in; but not production parts, with paint marks. etc. I'll ask Martin what he had. ( I have a long list of questions for him).

My other question is dating the creation of the GH. Note the Lucas light (late April), but the 428CJ-X engine, which had to have built before April 1st., as a prototype CJ engine, built probably in Feb-March '68. Fred told me that S-A built the CJ, but that may be for debate, since Tasca (?) did it first at the dealership, etc.

I also think that the Conelec wasn't original, and added sometime in 1969-70, thus the 1/4 mile test. The 428CJ-X probably had a 650 Holley on it, since it was part of the CJ test engine at that time.

I wouldn''t go on the black on the taillight frames--that wasn't a '68 Shelby thing.

In your pics, see if the side scoops have witness lines on them. I bet they don't.

and...the trunk had the original Lime Gold all the time, since the Sonny Fee paint job didn't get into the trunk.

More as it happens..

Paul.

 

[di81977]

Paul, are you doing a section on Li'l Red. Wasn't it that car, not the Green Hornet, that got Lee Grey talking to Lee Iacocca about a Calif Special? Don't get me wrong, the Green Hornet was/is a very cool car and I love reading about it, but I would think that Li'l Red would be more relevant to the GT/CS than the Green Hornet. Am I wrong or missing something?

You mention that the GH was the prototype for the GT/SC. I read somewhere that the GH came about because C. Shelby had a FI unit and IRS and needed a vehicle to test them on. Have you heard that? Was Ford killing two birds with one stone (i.e. testing the equipment and developing a prototype)? Did they intent to include the FI and IRS on the equipment package for the GT/SC?

Has the original Conelec EFI and IRS ever been found?

Here's hoping we see the book in '09! Good luck.

david

 

[PNewitt]

Hi David,

The GT/Sport Coupe was put together sometime between Sept and Dec 1967. Fred Goodell was responsible for putting that car together.

Fred's Shelby Automotive division bought that car from Ford Division, and proceeded to add the nose, drivetrain, etc., sometime between Jan. and April '68.

You are correct-- Shelby Automotive was assigned the task of coming up with a fuel delivery system to satisfy the needs of Ford's big cars (LTD, Merc, etc.), with the 428 engines--to meet Calif. Smog requirements. The Conelec FI was a strong possibility, and so they tried it out.

There were about 10 '69 Shelbys with the Conelec setup, too. I have the paperwork. Conelec was a side company made up of former Bendix engineers, in New York.
Fred had the Conelec setup in his garage for all those years, and I was instrumental (in 1993) in getting Martin and Fred together to figure out the restoration--which led to Fred coming up with the parts.

The IRS may have been a test bed for the Shelbys OR the big cars. Not sure which. The IRS "dissappeared" from the GH before it was put out for sale at the Employee's lot at Ford. It was either destroyed, or it's sitting somewhere, buried in "the land of misfit Ford engineering parts".

Maybe one should get a metal detector and start scanning Ionia, MI!

BEEEPPP!!!!

Paul.

 

[CougarCJ]

Paul, my guess is that the engine was based on the 428PI like all the early (pre-KR 428CJ) Shelby's. Not disputing the 428CJ, but trying to chronologically wrap my mind around it.

If it were carbureted originally, it likely had the C8ZX-A Holley which was advertised as 760cfm on top of a PI (police interceptor) aluminum intake manifold. Later 428CJ's used a 735cfm Holley.

 

[PNewitt]

Paul, my guess is that the engine was based on the 428PI like all the early (pre-KR 428CJ) Shelby's. Not disputing the 428CJ, but trying to chronologically wrap my mind around it.

If it were carbureted originally, it likely had the C8ZX-A Holley which was advertised as 760cfm on top of a PI (police interceptor) aluminum intake manifold. Later 428CJ's used a 735cfm Holley.

Since I'm not as well versed on the 428CJ as some folks, I went to:
http://www.mustangmonthly.com/featuredvehicles/1968_ford_mustang_cobra_jet_history_review/index.html

...and they state that when Ford got ahold of the idea that TASCA Ford proposed, they made two test mules and 50 FB for drag racing.

I betcha one of those test mules was the GH.

But here is how I'm figuring out the time of production: the fogs are Lucas (mid April), the rear reflectors are post-Feb 15th, '68, and the 428CJ-X was post December '67.

The late-style (Montego)rear reflectors were probably added later in '68, since the GT/SC used '67 fenders. Easy to do. (the photos of the GT/SC show reflectors, but they were stick- on fakes).

I'm just trying to figure out how these parts converge in a timely way, to nail down a close time of actual assembly. This might have been a work in progress from Jan-April '68.

Your thoughts,. CJ?

BTW--I remember a conversation with Fred about how he felt the CJ was over-carbureated at 735. He thought 650-700cfmwas better for air/fuel if it's running right.

 

[CougarCJ]

Since I'm not as well versed on the 428CJ as some folks, I went to:
http://www.mustangmonthly.com/featuredvehicles/1968_ford_mustang_cobra_jet_history_review/index.html

...and they state that when Ford got ahold of the idea that TASCA Ford proposed, they made two test mules and 50 FB for drag racing.

Those 50 fastback Mustangs were sequentially numbered 135007-135056

I betcha one of those test mules was the GH.

I thought the Green Hornet was a Coupe?

But here is how I'm figuring out the time of production: the fogs are Lucas (mid April), the rear reflectors are post-Feb 15th, '68, and the 428CJ-X was post December '67.


The late-style (Montego)rear reflectors were probably added later in '68, since the GT/SC used '67 fenders. Easy to do. (the photos of the GT/SC show reflectors, but they were stick- on fakes).

I'm just trying to figure out how these parts converge in a timely way, to nail down a close time of actual assembly. This might have been a work in progress from Jan-April '68.

Your thoughts,. CJ?

BTW--I remember a conversation with Fred about how he felt the CJ was over-carbureated at 735. He thought 650-700cfm was better for air/fuel if it's running right.

Look for my notations above in bold.

Wish we had some vintage pictures prior to the restoration. Craig Jackson owns the car currently as far as I know.
I think that someone took some liberties for the restoration. That Shelby American tag with "EXP Green Hornet" for the VIN. Hard to believe.

I am finding conflicting information on the 'net. It appears that different published articles may have mixed up GT/CS and GT/SC. Was the EXP-500 a California Special? This was eluded to in at least 2 places I visited.

Was any of the work done at A.O. Smith? or in house at the Michigan named "Shelby Automotive Incorporated" facility?

 

[PNewitt]

>Wish we had some vintage pictures prior to the restoration.

I do. About five photos. A couple taken in 1972 in the snow. A brand new Pinto is in the background.

>I think that someone took some liberties for the restoration. That Shelby American tag with "EXP Green Hornet" for the VIN. Hard to believe.

I think so, too. Not as a deception, but in pride of that fantastic restoration. The GH never had a Shelby VIN. Always the original 390 Mustang VIN (8F01S104288)

> It appears that different published articles may have mixed up GT/CS and GT/SC. Was the EXP-500 a California Special?

Have you ever seen that B&W Ford glamour shot of the GT/SC (Sport Coupe) prototype in Mustang books? Well, that's what they used to make the GH.

>Was any of the work done at A.O. Smith? or in house at the Michigan named "Shelby Automotive Incorporated" facility?

The S-A shop was converted from a former Olds dealership in Ionia, circa late 1967. The birthplace of the GH.

-Paul.

 

[PNewitt]

p.s. the MM article didn't say what the two test mules were...

They were in addition to the 50 FB drag cars. Who knows? one might have been a coupe, and the other a convertible?

Would someone over at the 428CJ Registry happen to know this?
"Get on the stick, people! We have some history to discover!!"

The GH 428CJ-X might have been a dyno test engine first....can you imagine the awesome sound of that kind of all-out raw performance on the dyno? ...then pop it into the GH, just sitting there, waiting?

Awesome!

-Paul.

 

[CougarCJ]

This link, it incorrectly shows the Green Hornet flanked by Little Red on both sides? I assume that it is Little Red?
http://bradbarnett.net/mustangs/concept/greenhornet/

 

[Stathy]

My best guess is that since this was a prototype Shelby, the original production 390 springs were there to begin with. Fred probably had them yanked out and some off-the-shelf KR spec'd coils dropped in; but not production parts, with paint marks. etc. I'll ask Martin what he had. ( I have a long list of questions for him).

My other question is dating the creation of the GH. Note the Lucas light (late April), but the 428CJ-X engine, which had to have built before April 1st., as a prototype CJ engine, built probably in Feb-March '68. Fred told me that S-A built the CJ, but that may be for debate, since Tasca (?) did it first at the dealership, etc.

I also think that the Conelec wasn't original, and added sometime in 1969-70, thus the 1/4 mile test. The 428CJ-X probably had a 650 Holley on it, since it was part of the CJ test engine at that time.

I wouldn''t go on the black on the taillight frames--that wasn't a '68 Shelby thing.

In your pics, see if the side scoops have witness lines on them. I bet they don't.

and...the trunk had the original Lime Gold all the time, since the Sonny Fee paint job didn't get into the trunk.

Paul.

Thanks Paul that trunk information is HUGE. It's one area that I thought I'd never find any information on.
You're right. I cannot see any signs of witness lines. I have a few shots archived on my work computer but I'm pretty sure the shots I have are conclusive. No lines.

Your debate on the 428CJ has really sparked my interest. As CJ could tell you, there are no external clues to know if that motor is a true 428CJ. Block dates could narrow things down a bit, but even a stripped down motor has it's difficulties in revealing it's true identity.
Are you suggesting that due to the possible production date this is not in fact a 428CJ motor? Wow, wouldnt that be something. I have seen mentioning of CJ's in prototypes as early as 67 but have yet to see anything conclusive.

Since the air cleaner on the GH is specific to GT500 KR's is there a possibility that the transformation happened after April?

This is getting interesting.

 

[CougarCJ]

Thanks Paul that trunk information is HUGE. It's one area that I thought I'd never find any information on.
You're right. I cannot see any signs of witness lines. I have a few shots archived on my work computer but I'm pretty sure the shots I have are conclusive. No lines.

This is getting interesting.

Stathy, don't forget the power antenna.

Without knowing for sure, it could be the electric antenna used on 1967-69 Thunderbirds among others. The Ford MPC calls out a Universal rear quarter mounted antenna with a part number of C7AZ-18813-C.

 

[CougarCJ]

Your debate on the 428CJ has really sparked my interest. As CJ could tell you, there are no external clues to know if that motor is a true 428CJ. Block dates could narrow things down a bit, but even a stripped down motor has it's difficulties in revealing it's true identity.
Are you suggesting that due to the possible production date this is not in fact a 428CJ motor? Wow, wouldnt that be something. I have seen mentioning of CJ's in prototypes as early as 67 but have yet to see anything conclusive.

Since the air cleaner on the GH is specific to GT500 KR's is there a possibility that the transformation happened after April?

This is getting interesting.

I think that the person commissioning the restoration chose to focus on the idea of a KR Coupe, as is evident by the Personalized Shelby VIN tag.

I read where this car was sold to a Ford employee in 1971, and it had the Conelec topped engine prior to the sale. That piece of the engine came up missing during this period of time. Not sure if it was before or after the sale in 1971.

 

[Stathy]

Stathy, don't forget the power antenna.

Without knowing for sure, it could be the electric antenna used on 1967-69 Thunderbirds among others. The Ford MPC calls out a Universal rear quarter mounted antenna with a part number of C7AZ-18813-C.

This is fantastic information CJ and that gives me a great lead!
Somewhere (i believe in an old photo) I recall the antenna having a square base.
I happen to have a friend that is a Tbird fanatic.
I'll ask him
Thanks so much!

 

[di81977]

I read where this car was sold to a Ford employee in 1971, and it had the Conelec topped engine prior to the sale. That piece of the engine came up missing during this period of time. Not sure if it was before or after the sale in 1971.

Who knows what the real story is, but I read that while in Ford's Employee and Auction Resale lot in Dearborn, the Independent Rear had been stolen and replaced with a standard Fairlane axle, and that the FI unit was missing and had been replaced with a police interceptor intake and 4 barrel carb. All this was before the yard supervisor (Robert Zdanowski) bought the car.

I am still interested in better understanding the GH connection to the Calif Special? Seems much more closely connected to a GT350/500 given the hood and interior. In the Hemmings Muscle Machines article (9/06), the lucas fogs are on square bases, not round. Similar to the Shelby I think.

 

[PNewitt]

The GH started out AS a GT/CS prototype, or pilot car as Fred Goodell told me on the phone many years ago. it had the GT/SC stripe on it, but it was the styling prototype. They used it for the GH as a test bed, since it already had the rear treatment & decklid.

It was never registered as a Shelby. No Shelby VIN or number.

I have the time slip for the 1/4 mile, and on it, it has "Holley" crossed out and EFI written over it.

I think that the Conolec period was at least late '68, early 69. The test on the track was dated in 1970. The car was sold in 1971.

Paul.
p.s. is it normal for a car with a 75 DSO (Phoenix) to be built in Dearborn?

 

[PNewitt]

I would like to add that we should think about the context in which Little Red and the Green Hornet were built.

These cars were built during 1967 and early 1968. Fred Goodell (Chief Engineer at Shelby, '66-'70) did an excellent job of trying some new ideas that had never been done before--and were implemented into Fords years later.

The styling and bodywork folks had a lot of pride in their work, too.

But, overall, these cars were part hot-rod and part serious Ford engineering and technology. These were test vehicles, built with a lot of pride and care. Shelby did what they were asked by Ford (as their outside R&D division).

Today, one cannot assume that these vehicles were all that close to production Shelbys. They all were supposed to be crushed, and dissappear forever, but the GH slipped through the crusher (an on-the-spot-decision).

The GH exists as a testament to Fred's work, and vision and excitement to build awesome vehicles. We owe Fred and his group there at Shelby Automotive a great thanks for what we have today. The endurance of our cars is also a testament to great Ford engineering, too. Something we can again appreciate in the 2007-09 GT/CS.

Paul N.

 

[CougarCJ]

Paul.
p.s. is it normal for a car with a 75 DSO (Phoenix) to be built in Dearborn?

Assuming that we are talking about generic 1968 Mustangs?

San Jose and Dearborn both produced Mustangs and Cougars side by side, or bumper to bumper, all through 1968.
1969 Cougars ceased to be produced in San Jose at the end of November 1968. About 8,400, 1969 Cougars were built in San Jose. This was a corporate decision in order to produce more Mustangs on the West Coast.

Is the car in question built during the latter part of 1968? after February? We see a smattering of 1968 Cougars from Dearborn shipped to all points of the West Coast during this period. It is likely that Mustangs were too.

Mustangs were selling 3 to 1 against Cougars for most years.

Was there something unusual about the car in question?
I am still learning about Mustang trivia, but I can say this about Cougar trivia.

• Special edition 1968 XR7-G Cougars were all built in Dearborn - and then shipped to A.O. Smith also in Michigan.
• All 1968 Cougars with the sunroof option were built in Dearborn - American Sunroof Corp (ASC) was located in Michigan too.
• All of the GT-E's were built in Dearborn because of the low production and or the 427 engine.
• During the short 1969 production of Cougars in San Jose - All hard tops - No convertibles.

Did the San Jose factory build convertibles? I have been wondering about this.

 

[J_Speegle]

Did the San Jose factory build convertibles? I have been wondering about this.

Mustangs - Yes

Cougars? - don't believe so