. Your thoughts on the new California Special book/registry

[robert campbell]

Scott,
Page 6 of this thread has two pictures of what I believe to be the early taillight panel on the debut cars. I do not have the new book so I cannot refer to the page of the blue debut car. I do have a side by side of the purported car and an old picture straight on the back of the blue debut car. In this photo, it is very obvious that the debut car had a noticeable recess to the gas cap IMO. Unfortunately I cannot post that picture, because of its copy right status. So we get to refer to the pictures. This is not bashing BUT frustrating.

Arlie has a few more shots of the blue car on page 6 of this thread with the scripts in the higher position. And showing the early recessed side reflectors that are an indication of an early 1968 Mustang. Just like the green car. Not only does the taillight panel make the gas cap look recessed, it almost makes me wonder about the diameter of the hole itself in the panel.

Arlie, can you post you best side shot of this car?

I carefully went over all the pictures in the authors first boo,k which I posses. The script location on all the debut cars was higher that a normal GT/CS ordered later. I am TOTALLY confident that the first 14 were hand assembled from NON-Marti verified standard Mustang coupes. I asked the author for a picture that may be larger and better for reference a couple years ago. I got nothing and as I stated before, wait for the book was the response. Well, we got the book and the question has not been addressed. I would think that clarifying the debut and early cars would have been very important to the author. I guess not, and he resulted to “desktop” research.

How many more were hand assembled? I asked this question more than two years ago. Now the author says maybe as many as 100. My car was dismissed as a clone or dealer assembled by the author. Based on the first blue Marti verified car ordered as a GT/CS. Do not discount that it is a GT/CS. But we know that the debut cars were but together in a hurry after the script was approved and indicated that 14 hand made sets of the script were made and stuck on at the last minute. To the same 14 standard Mustang coupes that will never be Marti verified.

My car, and one other Gold Nugget Special, were in the first book. Built within two days of each other. Both Anniversary Gold and not Sunlit Gold. The GNS cars were ordered in the fall of 1967. My car and the other GNS are Marti verified as such. But both these cars have the original fiberglass and so on. Both sold in the Seattle area. Hand assembled? That is the quest. But now the author has stated that they are clones and no more. Based on faulty research in my opinion. And based on his personal reasons.

I will take very detailed pictures of the blue car on page 6 of this thread. The owner is recovering from surgery at this time. And they will be free for all to look at. Not copy righted.

And to all, the above is not bashing. It is factual.

Rob

 

[GTCSMustang]

Would the debut cars have a GT/CS indication on the Marti? Has anyone seen the Marti on the Gulfstream Aqua car?

Scott

 

[DLedin]

...Has anyone seen the Marti on the Gulfstream Aqua car?

Scott

Can't any Marti Report be purchased, regardless if you're the owner of the vehicle or not?

Since Paul says in the book that it was an Elite Marti Report that verified the Gulfstream Aqua stage car, that would seem to me to be a more straight-forward way, for those who doubt Paul's information, to confirm things rather than interpreting an inconclusive photo.

-DLedin

 

[390cs68rcode]

Can't any Marti Report be purchased, regardless if you're the owner of the vehicle or not?

Since Paul says in the book that it was an Elite Marti Report that verified the Gulfstream Aqua stage car, that would seem to me to be a more straight-forward way, for those who doubt Paul's information, to confirm things rather than interpreting an inconclusive photo.

-DLedin

If one of them had a Marti then all will. Now, GUARANTEEING that the Aqua one we are talking about was a debut car and it had a Marti means they will all have Marti's.

 

[robert campbell]

Scott, Dledin, 390csRcode,
You guys keep missing the point!

Any car that has a Marti report that indicates that it is a GT/CS, or an HCS, or a Shelby or a...... IS THE REAL DEAL! I do NOT dispute that.

But to make the connection between a blue GT/CS cars with lots of options and CLAIM that it is the debut car on the stage is a bigger stretch than doing real investigative work. The author claims this car is the debut car because it is the lowest consecutive unit number in the Marti data base with a GT/CS option.

I say that NONE of the cars on the stage at the were ORDERED as a GT/CS. Therefore, the Marti data base is USELESS in determining a debut car. The debut cars were already ordered and finished on the line as a STANDARD 1968 Mustang coupe. Hand assembled just prior to the debut of the car. Many inferences are made in the authors first book to this. And it MAKES sense! The first 14 cars had hand made script that was just in time for the debut.

Gosh, do you think that on the night of the debut that a glut of cars were ordered that were exact clones to the blue car on the stage. DUH!

And if the author had this “elite” Marti report, why is it not in the book. He claims that it has Lee Gray’s name on it. I find this as very suspect. As I have said in other post on this thread, I have seen numerous elite reports. I have the one for my car. I have seen none that specify the name of a person ordering it....... I do not have the book, but I have been told the author resorts to circular logic rather than the report that “supposedly” will end all arguments. Like I said, at the risk of sounding like Donald Trump, the elite report says nothing that he claims.

And I said in a post on this thread, Lee Gray was nothing more than a Southern California Ford guy at the time. No one any more famous than the next Ford guy at that time.

Please absorb the above thoroughly and completely. Let’s debate and research the correct points.

Rob

 

[GTCSMustang]

Gosh, do you think that on the night of the debut that a glut of cars were ordered that were exact clones to the blue car on the stage. DUH!

If you're saying that the GT/CS that is claimed to be a debut car could have been a copy of the car on the stage at the debut event, it could not have been because the build date of the car predates the GT/CS event. On page 60 it says it was built on January 30th, 1968. The event was on February 15th.

That doesn't prove that it was the debut car, but at least it predates the event.

Scott

 

[CougarCJ]

I have seen Marti reports for Cougars and other cars that designate them as
"Show Units". According to Mustang by the Numbers there were 26, 1968 Mustang hardtops that were 'Show Units'.

The debut cars should have fallen into this category, as far as I know.

But then I must point out the always and never rule, when it comes to Ford.

Never, say never, as in 'Ford never built them that way'. There are exceptions, I have several examples for Mercury Cougars. I am sure that many of you can cite examples for Mustangs.

'Always', always has an exception. Ford always followed the paint and interior combinations specified in the dealer books. Not true, two 1968 Mustangs were built painted Lime Gold and had Blue bucket seat interiors.

 

[robert campbell]

If you're saying that the GT/CS that is claimed to be a debut car could have been a copy of the car on the stage at the debut event, it could not have been because the build date of the car predates the GT/CS event. On page 60 it says it was built on January 30th, 1968. The event was on February 15th.

That doesn't prove that it was the debut car, but at least it predates the event.

Scott

Scott,
Now we are getting somewhere! There are six categories on a Marti report are:

Order received
Car serialized
Bucked
Schedule for build
Actually built
Released
Sold

Scott “cougarCJ” has seen lots of anomalies between these dates. I have seen huge differences between the the sheet metal date codes and the order received and build dates. Sometimes the sheet metal codes are even earlier than the order received date. Glut of parts on the shelves. Sometimes the opposite where the parts are far older that the order received dates. Car stuck on the line!

It seems that I will need to spend 200 bucks and order the elite Marti report for this car. To see the actual dates above. Then there is the mystery as to when the record is actually “filled” out. Are cars ordered and changed down the line and the Marti is the final report of the car that left the line? Did Ford look at a Mustang coupe already ordered and part way down the line and decide to “modify” the car mid build and to fill an order? Is the Marti report a report of the “finished” car or the “ordered” car?

So was a car on the line on January 30th and converted to a GT/CS at the end?

Wrap your mind around this! My bet is the Marti report is a report of the car as it left the plant. Not as it was ordered.

Now we are having a fun debate on the points! I enjoy this. There is no bashing, but a search for the truth!

But you must have to agree with me on one fact. Why was the elite report of the "one of one" debut stage car not in the book? Hmmmmm.

Rob

 

[gtcs1]

Scott,
Now we are getting somewhere! There are six categories on a Marti report are:

Order received
Car serialized
Bucked
Schedule for build
Actually built
Released
Sold

HI,

I'm curious about a Marti report I have a copy (C Code ). The various dates are as follow. Note the build and release date have a bit more than a month difference. Is that to allow for it to be used meanwhile like at this show?
After this, it took 7 months to be sold.

C. Ser; 22/1/68
Buck, 23/1/68
Sch F Build 29/1/68
Ac Built 24/1/68
Rel 29/2/68
Sold 26/9/68

Any input?

 

[robert campbell]

HI,

I'm curious about a Marti report I have a copy (C Code ). The various dates are as follow. Note the build and release date have a bit more than a month difference. Is that to allow for it to be used meanwhile like at this show?
After this, it took 7 months to be sold.

C. Ser; 22/1/68
Buck, 23/1/68
Sch F Build 29/1/68
Ac Built 24/1/68
Rel 29/2/68
Sold 26/9/68

Any input?

This is getting so fun!! Built in January and not sold for 7 months! Wow! I bet this car was off the line in some hole and converted later into a GT/CS. What is the consecutive unit number of your car? I would like to see if it is lower than the car the author thinks is the debut car. If it is lower than the authors debut car maybe yours is just as justified to be on the stage???? My personal opinion says it is a very early car, but not necessarily on the stage that night. I am sure my car was not either. Does your car have the early recessed side reflectors?

Obviously, you have a very early car. Post the consecutive unit number. Based on how the author decided the blue car was a debut car, if your number is lower, gee, why not yours?

This is real research! And I want to see your taillight panel!

Rob

 

[GTCSMustang]

HI,

I'm curious about a Marti report I have a copy (C Code ). The various dates are as follow. Note the build and release date have a bit more than a month difference. Is that to allow for it to be used meanwhile like at this show?
After this, it took 7 months to be sold.

C. Ser; 22/1/68
Buck, 23/1/68
Sch F Build 29/1/68
Ac Built 24/1/68
Rel 29/2/68
Sold 26/9/68

Any input?

Is the Marti for a GT/CS? The rest of the Marti info would be helpful.

Scott

 

[robert campbell]

Scott,
I must assume it is a GT/CS or why would he post? I bet this car languished somewhere for a long time as a standard coupe. On the line. Bingo, convert it into a GT/CS, and now it sells! Leaves the line months later as a GT/CS and verified by Marti.

We will see his response, but I bet another case of a very early build car that is later converted and Marti verified as it leaves the line. Not as it was ordered. But as it leaves the factory. None the less a real GT/CS.

Rob

 

[Midnight Special]

HI,


......After this, it took 7 months to be sold......

Any input?

...If its a GT/CS, keep in mind that despite all the promotion and hype, they were not hot sellers in '68. Several of mine including an S-code went beyond six months to sell. That's also why fewer than planned were actually produced and for one year only. It's also why so little was known about them until relatively recently.

Remember the identity crisis we all had about six years ago? We seemed to "jump for joy" anytime one popped up in a magazine! Information was scarce and generic at best before this site....

 

[mustang.biz]

Hi all, I see there is lively discussion around my car!

Ruppstang gave me a call to let me know, sorry I haven't been more involved with the site, my business keeps me way too busy. After talking to him my curiosity got the best of me and I had to head over to the forums right away.

I can say that I am convinced the car I own is the one that was on stage. A lot of evidence points to that.

I would also suggest that just because my car says California Special on the Marti doesn't mean that every car at the event would. It could very well be that the first few were modified coupes and the rest were built with the California Special option designated. So while it is clear not many minds are going to be changed, I think there might be room for more than one "correct" story.

With that said, I'm attaching the Marti and the photograph that has been mentioned. Some items to note:

• DEALER is the Ford District Sales Office in Pico Rivera
• The car was never "RELEASED" or "SOLD"
• The dates fit the story told by Lee Grey
• The 1 of 1 designation is only with options visible in the photographs. Nothing obscure.

For some nostaglia, here is the thread that started it all. It was Rob's reply that prompted me to contact Paul Newitt!
http://californiaspecial.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8119

I will try to keep up with this site more often, but can't make any promises...

PS I still have cars for sale!

 

[GTCSMustang]

Does the car still have the original exhaust on it?

Scott

 

[CougarCJ]

Found the meanings of the dates on the Marti Reports.

Order received date - Date received from Dealer at Ford General Office.
Serialized date - Date the Genereal Office assigned the plant for manufacture.
Bucked date- Date the bare completed unitized body was completed and ready for paint.
Scheduled for build date- Construction date estimated by the General Office when assigned to the Plant (Milpitas).
Actual Built date- Date vehicle begins to be assembled on the Trim/Chassis line, usually completed on this date.
Released date- Date the assembly plant released the car to convoy or rail.

 

[Midnight Special]

Scott, see what you can glean from his gallery. I can't tell if the mufflers are original. May have had the old round glass packs welded in, but the tailpipes look original.

What do you think?

http://www.mustang.biz/Mustang.biz/Photo_Gallery/Pages/J_Code.html#11

'All looks pretty convincing as "the stage car" to me!

 

[robert campbell]

All,
Curtis has posted the picture that I would not, and did not, post. This picture in my my mind shows two cars with different taillight panels. The debut car clearly has a recessed gas cap. I mean this not to offend Curtis, but my car has the exact same alignment between the taillight panel and the left corner of the trunk lid. More than likely most, if not all, cars have the same misalignment. The exhaust tip is very suspect after all these years. Scott asked a very fair question about whether the exhaust is original. Chances are it is not. but I may be wrong.

The fact that the elite report is blank in the released or sold lines means very little. A quick run through the Marti reports on this site show many cars with blanks in these areas. So that means little.

Curtis’s car may have been the car on the stage, but IMO I doubt it. Just earlier in this thread we see a car that my be even earlier. And with a huge gap in the six categories of “dates”. I feel all cars on the stage that night will not be Marti verified. They were ordered as standard coupes and converted into the debut cars for the debut.

I feel the early taillight panel was on every car on the stage that night. Curtis’s car either lost it over the years or never had it.

I know that these comments are inflammatory. But this is a quest for the truth about the early cars. Not specifically to discredit other people’s cars. The author started this by “guaranteeing” that Curtis’s car was on the stage that night. In the thread that Curtis posted that I was involved with, I never said it was a debut car. At that time, I had never seen his Marti report. And I see no mention of Lee Gray’s name on the elite report. What does that say about the authors post earlier in this thread? Can’t wait for that explanation.

And the other fact is “if” a side shot is posted of Curtis’s car, you will see the GT/CS script holes are noticeably lower than the debut car. Yet another sign of a debut car. I have an old one when he posted it for sale on his site. The holes are much lower than a debut car would have had. But again I will not post it.

I may be wrong in all of this. Let the experts of this site do the research and find the truth.

Rob

 

[robert campbell]

Scott, see what you can glean from his gallery. I can't tell if the mufflers are original. May have had the old round glass packs welded in, but the tailpipes look original.

What do you think?

http://www.mustang.biz/Mustang.biz/Photo_Gallery/Pages/J_Code.html#11

'All looks pretty convincing as "the stage car" to me!

Tim has posted the link to extensive pictures of this car. Script holes are standard like all the later GT/CS cars. Not high like a debut car. Tailight panel is later also. Not creating a recessed gas cap . IMO not a stage car.

Hugely optioned car, very valuable, a real GT/CS car, and identically ordered as the stage car. A one of one car. But that, in itself, does not put it on the stage.

The journey continues.

Rob

 

[robert campbell]

Scott, see what you can glean from his gallery. I can't tell if the mufflers are original. May have had the old round glass packs welded in, but the tailpipes look original.

What do you think?

http://www.mustang.biz/Mustang.biz/Photo_Gallery/Pages/J_Code.html#11

'All looks pretty convincing as "the stage car" to me!

Tim,
Replacement Cherry Bomb muffler in the one photo. Tail pipe rotted just as fast as mufflers. Even it the tail pipes are original, Cherry bombs are much longer than a stock muffler. Exhaust tip allignment is totally wrong on the left side and sticking way out. All exhaust tip alignment has been disturbed from its original look.

Rob