. Your thoughts on the new California Special book/registry

[robert campbell]

Curtis,
Here is something to look at that has been a mystery for a long time.

The first photo is my car with the side script in the normal location.

This photo is a recreation by Tim that mimics where my script was when I originally bought the car. The holes are still in the quarter panel for this higher location. It is very faithful and I can supply pictures of the holes from the inside.

In the authors first book there are small side shots of the car on the stage. In my opinion the script on the stage car is noticably higher like the picture Tim recreated.

Your car has the holes in the lower position. Now the author is saying that the script was drilled with a template and variations may have occured. I would agree with that. Again, I asked for a bigger photo form the author of the stage car, but he said wait for the book.

Maybe you can get him to give you a picture. This is the evidence I have been looking for.

Rob

 

[robert campbell]

Curtis has asked this question twice now and no one seems to be responding to it. Why not? It seems to make sense to me that this would be a useful direction to research.

-DLedin

Doug,
I really do not think Marti research is going to help in the debut car mystery. Physical (pictorial) evidence is the only way in my opinion to unwrap the facts. Somtimes the search for the facts are not as easy as searching a database. I do not mean this to be adversarial in any way.

Maybe I am all wet on this!

Rob

 

[robert campbell]

Curtis, Doug, Scott,
Take a look at this photo. The top script is from my car when I got it. Locaed in the higher position. The "o" in "california" is distinctly different as it curves into the "r". The author alluded to handmade sets for the first 14 cars. The bottom script is your typical repop available these days. There are other major differences such as the flatness of the original scripts surface when compared to the roundness of the repop on the outer surface. This is another revelation in the authors book supplied by this site.

Curtis,
Do you have the scripts for your car? How do they compare? This is real world stuff via pictures of actual components and their locations.

Rob

 

[robert campbell]

Curtis,
Here is a picture of the inside of my trunk of the right quarter panel. You can see the speed nuts on the script in the traditional location. The holes circled in blue are still in my quarter panel for the higher location like a debut car. I moved them down in 1989 due to fact they looked wrong, and I was ignorant! Yup, the blue writing is still in there. Yes, the lower quarter panel has a patch panel. Measurements are from the recessed reflector indentation.

Rob

 

[DLedin]

Doug,
I really do not think Marti research is going to help in the debut car mystery. Physical (pictorial) evidence is the only way in my opinion to unwrap the facts. Somtimes the search for the facts are not as easy as searching a database. I do not mean this to be adversarial in any way.

Maybe I am all wet on this!

Rob

Thanks for responding on this Rob. I sort of wondered if that would be your take on further data mining.

I won't be holding my breath on more detailed, vintage images of the debut popping up. I would guess that the images used by Paul came from Lee Grey.

Would be nice to know if the debut photographer was still around and if they had this event archived. Generally, pros shoot way more material than what ultimately gets used. Who knows what other possibly revealing angles might be sitting in storage.

EDIT: Just saw the other images you posted. Interesting stuff. (I was going to ask you why you bothered to move the script from it's original position.) Also just noticed that the first "i" in "California" looks different where the dot over the "i" is connected.

-DLedin

 

[robert campbell]

Doug,
Interesting thought on the photographer. But so many years ago. I still think the author may have the original pictures or other angles.

But, What the hey! I will continue to dig.

Rob

 

[mustang.biz]

Rob,

1. The scripts were not on the car. I have a bunch of them, no way to know which goes with which car (and some have gone with sold cars).

2. I do not have access to a good side shot of the scripts on the stage car. I looked at the rear of the original Newitt book and there is a picture, but it is way too small. I've contacted Paul to see if he'll share higher resolution images. I don't have the new book yet, so if there is a good image in there I will dig deeper.

3. I'm disappointed to hear you aren't interested in tracking down production data. Are you suggesting that if Ford did not build a similarly optioned (minus California Special) car before the event it would still be your contention that my car was not on stage?

Dledin,

My understanding is that Paul bought the event images from the photographer and owns the rights to them.

 

[Ruppstang]

It is my opinion that evey posible lead should be followed to a end so Curtis I think we should get all the information possible from the data base. Here is a couple of ideas of what may have happened with the debut cars. I think some of the hand built cars were pulled from factory invantory as mentioned above. Those cars would have been middle of the road optioned cars at best, Lee Grey wanted somthing really special for the stage and ordered a loaded up car that got there just in time for the event. It would make sense that this car would have the Cal Special option on the Marti.
I leave for the Jacksonville FL. MCA national tomorrow and will see Jeff Speegle there. I will ask him if he knows anyone that worked for Ford during that time. Is there anyone from this site going? Marty

 

[DLedin]

...My understanding is that Paul bought the event images from the photographer and owns the rights to them.

This wouldn't surprise me, that Paul tracked down the photographer. It would have been a potentially fruitful lead to follow.

I too would like to see further data research (but it's not cheap and not my money). As you mentioned, I think if Ford did not build a similarly optioned, non-GTCS Mustang before the event that would be worth knowing.

-DLedin

 

[robert campbell]

Rob,

2. I do not have access to a good side shot of the scripts on the stage car. I looked at the rear of the original Newitt book and there is a picture, but it is way too small. I've contacted Paul to see if he'll share higher resolution images. I don't have the new book yet, so if there is a good image in there I will dig deeper.

Curtis,
I do not have the new book either, but Tim says there is a larger shot of the stage car. And the scripts are higher. If you have his first book and look at the photos on the back cover and every photo on the stage you will soon see that the word "California" on the right quarter is almost even with the word "Mustang" on the trunk lid. Then go view a couple cars with the traditional location and you will see a very discernable difference.

This IMO is a crucial fact in the stage cars and the early build cars. I have never felt my car was anywhere near that stage, but this location tells me it was a car removed from the line and converted to a GT/CS. Not sure when or by whom. I did make contact with the sales manager of the dealer my car came from. Still alive and a great guy. Not much help though. Just as many of the factory workers and sales people of the day. They were pushing Mustangs out and really one “specialty” edition meant very little. The author got a few facts from them in the 1980’s.

I may risk the bashing and post the larger pic from the new book when I get it.

Rob

 

[robert campbell]

Curtis,
I have been provided a larger picture of the blue stage car at the debut and another picture of a white car at the debut. I cannot post them for copy right reasons. If you would like a copy of them, call me at (360) 377-5164 and I will e-mail them to you. They tell a huge story that you will like and helps me immensely!!

Between this new photo I received, and the photo on your website of your car where you hold up a tape measure to your cars side script, it is obvious that your script IS IN the higher position. This pictorial evidence coupled with the Marti and the loaded options convinces me fully that your car was indeed one of early cars and most likely the one on the stage! I cannot believe I missed the script location when I first scanned your website. My mistake totally!

I apologize for the prolonged debate about your car. It was more a debate about the early cars and not specifically about your car. You indeed have a HUGE piece of GT/CS history. Certainly I am no one other than an interested owner of the cars and my endorsement means LITTLE in the grand scheme. And I must admit that the author of the book was correct on the pedigree of your car.

But, your car now proves this very high script location on my car! That is huge for me to try to find out what is what with its history. I have never revealed this on the site, but my car was blue with a white vinyl top, and white side stripes when I bought it. It is listed in the first book by then owner Bruce Malmberg. It needed a lot of work, and I quickly discovered it was Anniversary Gold and found remnants of a black vinyl top. Further research and the Marti report identified it as a Gold Nugget Special.

But it carried all the original GT/CS fiberglass and the Marchal’s. Everything to make it a GT/CS. And the weird placement of the script! Was it pulled and cloned for sale by a dealer? Was it pulled by Ford and converted at the factory? Of done in someone's backyard? If it was, someone knew about the higher script location.

This is my quest! But your car has proven the one fact that the early GT/CS cars (how many?) may have the script in a higher location. You should carefully look over any scripts you have. The author alludes to 14 early handmade sets. You may have them. And if you do, you may want to help me by comparing to my close up to see what I have.

This is so cool! Again sorry for the debate!! But the debate was healthy to our hobby. I find it too bad that the author would not share ONE photo years earlier with me. It would have opened a rich chapter in the history of the early GT/CS cars for his book.

Rob

 

[DLedin]

Rob,

One of the things that cast doubt for you was the rear panel/recessed gas cap question. Has your opinion changed on that as well?

The photos you refer to above, are they from the new book?

-DLedin

 

[robert campbell]

Doug,
I would say yes. The script location is so convincing of Curtis's car. The shot of the rear of the debut car and Curtis's car is straight on the back and bit hard to judge. I am convinced it is a debut car! Again, thanks for the positive debate and your temperance in all of this.

Yes, pics are from the new book. I will never post them on this site. Jon asked me to respect that and I will. At the same time sharing photos pesonally between people is fine in my book. No pun indended.

I know you are in personal contact with the author, but IMO once a person buys the book it is his/her property to do with what he/she wants. As long as it is not for profit.

Rob

 

[Ruppstang]

I really do not think posting pictures out of any book here is a copy right infringment? No one is publishing them or profiting from them.

 

[DLedin]

I really do not think posting pictures out of any book here is a copy right infringment? No one is publishing them or profiting from them.

Perhaps not but it would be better if Paul were to give his OK to do so. I think Jon is making the right decision.

Short of that, I would imagine that more than a few forum members here have, or will soon have, the book and giving page numbers to refer to would be an alternative (as well as privately sharing images).

I'm glad that Paul's book has been able to bring about some answers for Rob after all. For me, as a very non-technical CS owner, I've learned a lot in this discussion.

I wish Curtis all the best in the restoration of his debut car.

-DLedin

 

[mustang.biz]

Hey guys, after a long work day it is nice to pop in and see the positive comments.

Rob, I have a couple of copies of the book on the way, but still wouldn't mind chatting, I'll give you a call probably this weekend. I also owe Scott a return call.

Thanks for the wish DLedin, I've had the car for a while but haven't done much other than get it out of the weather and start collecting NOS parts. I'm hoping to get a bit more active soon and try to sell at least a couple of cars before I dig too deep into restoration.

I'm going to try to be less of a stranger to the forum...

 

[robert campbell]

Curtis,
I think you will find the people on this forum alot of help in your restoration. This is the friendliness car forum I have ever been a part of. And we all speak as equals to help you.

By the way. Don't be a dumb ass like me, and move your script down! I did this in the late 1980's not knowing what I had. Well, actually still don't know what I have. And the holes were so small they were not welded up.

One day, I will move them back up!

Rob

 

[ari guy]

Guys, Ive been following this thread for a couple of days and find it very interesting in the discovery process thus far. I have been associated with two other car clubs, both car brands are orphans now, Bricklin and Delorean. It is amazing the number of documents they have acquired in their archives of daily internal changes and completion of changes on the rolling assembly line.
All I am saying is, somewhere, someplace in ford archives is a change order memo of moving the script location from 6 inches to 3and a half inches above the reflector. On that memo is a date. There is another memo and on it is the date the change over occurred. This date will give you an idea of the vin numbers of cars completed on that date. You will know from all vins earlier which cars originally had the higher scripts.
I know it sounds like a long shot but it is doable, Ive seen it in two small car clubs and the wealth of information to be gleaned on lots of questions that we havent even thought up yet. Maybe Im all wet, maybe Ford wont give up anything, I dont know, but IMO it might be worth a shot. Doc

 

[hookedtrout]

I think if we had the right people with the right motives we may be able to get some info if it's still available. It would be great to uncover some of this and solve some of the remaining mysteries.

 

[390cs68rcode]

I might know someone at Ford that could help. I'll follow up tomorrow.