Midnight Special
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Oh no worries Marty! I know...
Let freedom ring
Let freedom ring
COMMUNITY
1968 GT/CS & HCS
2007+ GT/CS
1966-1967 HCS
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1968 Your thoughts on 2v-4v 289 conversion and whatnot...
- Thread starter obwan93001
- Start date
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obwan93001
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Haahahahaaa. Didn't intend to bring out the dark side of anyone, really did think I'd hear from Rob here but maybe he's grown tired of the types of questions I'd asked and just stayed outside the thread. I did think of not posting but needed some help being poked off one side of the fence or the other cuz I just couldn't make up my mind as to which way to go. I kinda knew going in that I could illicit suggestions ranging anywhere from "stay stock and original" to "stop pussyfootin' around and just pull the drivetrain and drop in a 347 stroker, a nice trans w/OD and pop in a 9" posi pumpkin w/better gearing in the rear there stroker ace!". I did get some good suggestions however and have decided to go w/the Edelbrock Performer 1405 carb and Performer 289 intake (leaving the carb manual choke by choice). I am still hoping to pick up that pair of rebuilt '68 C8OE-F 302-4v heads and will use the Magnaflow system w/the '86-'93 era Mustang GT factory stainless shorty headers. I did want to go w/the 289 HiPo exhaust manifolds but just can't pay $250 for a used pair or about the same for a repop pair. Had bid on a pair of cleaned up and painted originals this evening but finished way over my budget. They ended up going for $265 + $40 shipping which I could've saved using local pickup as the seller was about 25 mi from me but I'll just keep my eyes peeled for a another pair. Couldn't find another pair of originals on ebay but they do come up every now and then.
I'll let you all know how things go. Thanks again for your comments and suggestions guys! Much appreciated! :thumb:
Oscar
I'll let you all know how things go. Thanks again for your comments and suggestions guys! Much appreciated! :thumb:
Oscar
rvrtrash
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I think it should be 100% stock....well except for the wheels and tires.....and maybe lower it a little with better sway bars and shocks......and maybe a nice alum. intake set up for fuel injection......well maybe it needs headers and a nice sounding cam.......and a dual exhaust, but that's all......except maybe an electric fan.....low compression forged pistons and a supercharger.....but that's all......well you'll need a better tranny..........Brother Rob was gone so I assumed the Darth Vader helmet and filled in for him. :thumb:
Steve
Steve
robert campbell
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WHERE THE HECK HAVE I BEEN??? I need to digest the thread!!!
More later from the dark side of the evil empire of high performance!!! cutting and whacking and such stuff!!!
Rob
More later from the dark side of the evil empire of high performance!!! cutting and whacking and such stuff!!!
Rob
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obwan93001
Well-known member
BBWWWAAAAHHAHHAHHAHAAA There's the one post I had been anticipating! Thanks for filling in for Rob there Steve, now I feel this thread is just about complete!
I already do have a used set of repop styled steel wheels w/the blue center caps that belong on a '67 not my '68 and furthermore they're 15s not 14s as orginally on my CS. I've already redone the entire suspension and added lowering springs in the front and lowering leafs in the rear and just picked up a pair of KYB GR2 shocks for the rear to help w/hard ride due to the 3/4" sway bar I added to the rear that didn't come w/the car originally and swapped out the straw thin original front sway bar w/a nice beefy 1" bar. Let's see what else... Oh yea, I do have the Eddy Performer combo and headers along w/dual exhaust system, an Optima Red Top battery and the cam and forged pistons will go in when I rebuild the 289 later. Then the tranny may be upgraded to a T5 AT but that's it, no injection system or supercharger.
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...yet. :grin: K, but I'll make it all look as orig as possible. LOL
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obwan93001
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robert campbell
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Oscar,
After popping another beer and digesting the thread, you are on the right track of a nice mild performance, throaty sounding 289. With a stock cam I do not see a reason to change the heads. You motor will make good power from 2,000 to 5,000 RPM. The 1965 2V and 4V motors are in the 9.5 to 10.0 compression ratio based on the deck height and piston pin location. Putting 53 CC combustion chamber heads on this 289 motor may result in 11.0 or 11.5 to one. A great upgrade for a racing motor, but without the cam and the rest of the package not wise.
With your budget, the best thing to do is the Edelbrock intake and carb. The shorty header are a good choice, but with hipo exhaust manifolds as Neil suggested you can use an over the counter 2.5 inch “H” pipe. If you use the shorty’s you will need to make a custom H pipe. If you have a reasonable exhaust guy they can do it for cheap. By the way, mock the shorty’s up on your heads and make sure they clear the big early spark plug. The late motors used the small spark plugs. Sometimes they do not clear at the header flange. But the shorty and the hipo manifold are great upgrades.
I love electric chokes! I hate manual chokes! But that is me. Electric chokes work great and are trouble free once dialed in.
The best “next” upgrade for your engine to make even more power is a set of iron heads that are ported on the exhaust side. Or a set of aluminum heads. A bigger cam would help. But this is more cost. The single worst part of a “Windsor” small block is the exhaust port and exhaust valve. Even with just a 600 CFM carb, and a mild cam, matched to hipo or shorty’s makes a huge difference if the exhaust side is ported.
With your budget, stay with your heads. Put on your shorty’s and install the biggest exhaust pipe you can. Not for performance, but for sound. You will love the sound and turn heads everywhere! The Windsor small block is very loud. Not sure why, but it is way louder than a brand X motor and even a big block Ford!! Big block Fords with uncorked headers are way quieter than any small block Ford. I have video to prove it!
And the big exhaust is done and waiting for a 347 or whatever!!
Rob
After popping another beer and digesting the thread, you are on the right track of a nice mild performance, throaty sounding 289. With a stock cam I do not see a reason to change the heads. You motor will make good power from 2,000 to 5,000 RPM. The 1965 2V and 4V motors are in the 9.5 to 10.0 compression ratio based on the deck height and piston pin location. Putting 53 CC combustion chamber heads on this 289 motor may result in 11.0 or 11.5 to one. A great upgrade for a racing motor, but without the cam and the rest of the package not wise.
With your budget, the best thing to do is the Edelbrock intake and carb. The shorty header are a good choice, but with hipo exhaust manifolds as Neil suggested you can use an over the counter 2.5 inch “H” pipe. If you use the shorty’s you will need to make a custom H pipe. If you have a reasonable exhaust guy they can do it for cheap. By the way, mock the shorty’s up on your heads and make sure they clear the big early spark plug. The late motors used the small spark plugs. Sometimes they do not clear at the header flange. But the shorty and the hipo manifold are great upgrades.
I love electric chokes! I hate manual chokes! But that is me. Electric chokes work great and are trouble free once dialed in.
The best “next” upgrade for your engine to make even more power is a set of iron heads that are ported on the exhaust side. Or a set of aluminum heads. A bigger cam would help. But this is more cost. The single worst part of a “Windsor” small block is the exhaust port and exhaust valve. Even with just a 600 CFM carb, and a mild cam, matched to hipo or shorty’s makes a huge difference if the exhaust side is ported.
With your budget, stay with your heads. Put on your shorty’s and install the biggest exhaust pipe you can. Not for performance, but for sound. You will love the sound and turn heads everywhere! The Windsor small block is very loud. Not sure why, but it is way louder than a brand X motor and even a big block Ford!! Big block Fords with uncorked headers are way quieter than any small block Ford. I have video to prove it!
And the big exhaust is done and waiting for a 347 or whatever!!
Rob
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obwan93001
Well-known member
Rob or should I say Darth Campbell. Thanks for your input and the math brother! Me likes loud exhaust, not annoying but loud. So if I keep my current heads which I believe are late '67/early '68 if they're the originals, that'll possibly save me at the least about $250 tomorrow morning. I was planning on checking out and making an offer on a pair of the C8OE-F heads this guy is selling cuz he's going the induction route and wants the larger chamber for the extra boost. Per seller: "I have completely overhauled them, they are in perfect condition, I have resurfaced them .003in, installed hardend exhaust seats-3 angle cut, new ductile iron guides-stock size, They come with all of the valves and springs and they are also in great shape!". I do actually plan on rebuilding the 289 sometime in the near future and at that time would like to pop in a mild cam and, if I can, might go the way of rollers as well but we'll see, will cross that one when I gets there. So now with that said, if I decide to pop for the 4v 302 heads w/the 53.5cc chambers, what, if any, kind of damage could I be looking at if I used them w/stock cam for say, one year/10k miles @ the 11.x:1 comp ratio? I'd hate to blow apart my 289 block seeing they're getting harder to find.
In regards to the h-pipe, the dual system I have is the Magnaflow 15816: http://www.magnaflow.com/02product/displayapplications.asp?partnumber=15816. It is a complete 2.5" system and uses inlet pipe extensions that you trim to fit your manifolds/headers and they go into MF's Tru-X crossmember pipe. I know you know that system so sorry if I'm spitting out known chit atcha Rob. MF says the inlet pipe exts will fit w/OEM or tubular headers so I assume they'll be fine and won't need a custom H-pipe, correct me if I be wrong tho please. Can't recall the flippin name of the adapters at the moment but I may have to use them to adapt the header flanges to the 2.5" inlets and the reverse to be able to use the repop '68 GT quad tips I plan on using. I do believe my heads use the smaller plug but will check. I will be installing new valve cover gaskets this weekend or next week so will know the exact type of heads I have then.
In regards to the choke, I could've gone either way but two things took me the manual way, one was I got the Edelbrock 1405 manual choke carb and Performer 289 intake in hardly used condition as a combo for $175 shipped. Seriously looks like they were used for a few miles then taken off, no signs of damage, cracks or mods. Two, a PO of my CS installed a manual choke cable w/pull knob mounted under the dash near ignition so was alret set up like that due to orig electric choke on 2100 carb is broken and heat tube is also broken at the ex mani. But like I said I am used to manual choke on my motorcycle and like that it's one less electrical item to worry about. I live in SoCal and don't see winters like other parts of our country so should be fine w/manual as may not even have to use it much anyhow. Please let me know what you stink about the above when you have a few mins Rob.
Thanks again everyone!
Oscar
In regards to the h-pipe, the dual system I have is the Magnaflow 15816: http://www.magnaflow.com/02product/displayapplications.asp?partnumber=15816. It is a complete 2.5" system and uses inlet pipe extensions that you trim to fit your manifolds/headers and they go into MF's Tru-X crossmember pipe. I know you know that system so sorry if I'm spitting out known chit atcha Rob. MF says the inlet pipe exts will fit w/OEM or tubular headers so I assume they'll be fine and won't need a custom H-pipe, correct me if I be wrong tho please. Can't recall the flippin name of the adapters at the moment but I may have to use them to adapt the header flanges to the 2.5" inlets and the reverse to be able to use the repop '68 GT quad tips I plan on using. I do believe my heads use the smaller plug but will check. I will be installing new valve cover gaskets this weekend or next week so will know the exact type of heads I have then.
In regards to the choke, I could've gone either way but two things took me the manual way, one was I got the Edelbrock 1405 manual choke carb and Performer 289 intake in hardly used condition as a combo for $175 shipped. Seriously looks like they were used for a few miles then taken off, no signs of damage, cracks or mods. Two, a PO of my CS installed a manual choke cable w/pull knob mounted under the dash near ignition so was alret set up like that due to orig electric choke on 2100 carb is broken and heat tube is also broken at the ex mani. But like I said I am used to manual choke on my motorcycle and like that it's one less electrical item to worry about. I live in SoCal and don't see winters like other parts of our country so should be fine w/manual as may not even have to use it much anyhow. Please let me know what you stink about the above when you have a few mins Rob.
Thanks again everyone!
Oscar
Rob you are back and there is balance in the universe! I knew we could count on you. Marty
robert campbell
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Oscar,
Exhaust looks great!! Manual choke is just fine.
The 4V heads will not hurt a thing on you car. You will need to time it correctly, but it will damage nothing. If bought at a good price they will be good trading stock later, but not a good platform for more performance later. The added compression will make more HP on your current engine, but not so much at the RPM your stock engine will run with its cam.
If your stock heads are in good shape I would not waste the money. Save up for some high zoot heads for your stroker motor. Or a complete stroker motor.
Your exhaust can adapt to any motor you use later and make great sound with your current plan!
Heads with great flowing exhaust are the key to any Windsor! Stock heads need alot of porting but can make huge hp in the right hands. Your stock bottom end with a set of aftermarket heads and a cam set up for under 6,000 RPM are the ticket to a large HP increase.
Rob
Exhaust looks great!! Manual choke is just fine.
The 4V heads will not hurt a thing on you car. You will need to time it correctly, but it will damage nothing. If bought at a good price they will be good trading stock later, but not a good platform for more performance later. The added compression will make more HP on your current engine, but not so much at the RPM your stock engine will run with its cam.
If your stock heads are in good shape I would not waste the money. Save up for some high zoot heads for your stroker motor. Or a complete stroker motor.
Your exhaust can adapt to any motor you use later and make great sound with your current plan!
Heads with great flowing exhaust are the key to any Windsor! Stock heads need alot of porting but can make huge hp in the right hands. Your stock bottom end with a set of aftermarket heads and a cam set up for under 6,000 RPM are the ticket to a large HP increase.
Rob
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obwan93001
Well-known member
Thanks Rob!
Somehow missed your reply earlier but thanks man. Yeah, I think I'll pass on the 4v heads and just wait until I can get some good aftermarket puppies instead. Plus did some quick research on running high CRs and their effects on engines. They'll run hotter therefore breaking the oil's effectiveness down quicker and causing wear at a higher rate. Not to mention having to use higher octane petro and even saw mention of pre-ignition issues that could melt a piston, yikes! I totally trust what you said about the higher CRs in the stock 289 not hurting it and depends on the engine, of course a VW air cooled washing machine engine would break down way before my tough lil 289 but I don't even want to risk the slightest thing happening to it right now so yep, no C8OE-F heads for me. Even though I'd already set aside money for most of what I'll need to do or have done to the CS those $250-$300 should be saved. Especially given I am currently unemployed, duh. I'm glad I picked up all I could for the CS over the past 3 yrs before I was out of work. Then when I do get back to working I'll be able to get the better heads and tear into the engine!
Thanks again bro!
Oscar
Somehow missed your reply earlier but thanks man. Yeah, I think I'll pass on the 4v heads and just wait until I can get some good aftermarket puppies instead. Plus did some quick research on running high CRs and their effects on engines. They'll run hotter therefore breaking the oil's effectiveness down quicker and causing wear at a higher rate. Not to mention having to use higher octane petro and even saw mention of pre-ignition issues that could melt a piston, yikes! I totally trust what you said about the higher CRs in the stock 289 not hurting it and depends on the engine, of course a VW air cooled washing machine engine would break down way before my tough lil 289 but I don't even want to risk the slightest thing happening to it right now so yep, no C8OE-F heads for me. Even though I'd already set aside money for most of what I'll need to do or have done to the CS those $250-$300 should be saved. Especially given I am currently unemployed, duh. I'm glad I picked up all I could for the CS over the past 3 yrs before I was out of work. Then when I do get back to working I'll be able to get the better heads and tear into the engine!
Thanks again bro!
Oscar
franklinair
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Arlie pointed out my shortcomings when I assembled my new 302 in my '68 convertible, (I wondered why it wouldn't run) so I went back and figured out what was missing!
Neil
Neil
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Midnight Special
Well-known member
...That's okay... I know someone who did all that, but forgot to put the rotor on the distributor. I wonder if Arlie could've spotted that one!
somethingspecial
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Forgot to put the rotor on the distributor, Boy, that guy must be a real MORON!!!!!!!!!LOL
somethingspecial
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Forgot to put the rotor on the distributor, Boy, that guy must be a real MORON!!!!!!!!!LOL
Midnight Special
Well-known member
Mmm... 'Wouldn't go that far, but thank goodness a for the Yellow Pages!
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obwan93001
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bbwwwwaaahahhaaahahaaa
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obwan93001
Well-known member
What's wrong in the pic?
I can't for the life of me see what Arlie saw in the pic, was was wrong/missing?
Neil, I keep forgetting to ask you, being you're an aviator. Have you ever been to Ventura County in SoCal, Santa Paula in particular? It is an old oil and citrus town that has it's own little airport that has been around since 1930. (Airport site: http://www.santapaulaairport.com/ and their museum's site: http://www.amszp.org/) One of those where the hangars are individually owned and back in the day Steve McQueen was a resident of Santa Paula for years and even lived at the airport in an old small house right by the air strip! Years ago, (after McQueen had passed though) on weekends, I used to play w/a band that jammed at the hanger that was located next to that house. The vocalist's father had been a pilot for Continental for years and after he retired he flew out of that airport and had left him the hanger when he passed away. It was a blast playing and watching planes take off and land and we'd even get people hanging at the bar/grill at the other end of the airport hear us and come over to listen. Ahhhh, the old days, good times.
Btw, today I ordered all the parts I need to install the Edelbrock Performer combo and the dual exhaust system/headers. Should have everything in about a week and can't wait! Gonna pull the valve covers off to see what heads I have, the current 2v intake looks to be the original and I'm curious if the heads may be too. Plus the VC gaskets need replacing anyhow so good excuse to do that this week.
Oscar
I can't for the life of me see what Arlie saw in the pic, was was wrong/missing?
Neil, I keep forgetting to ask you, being you're an aviator. Have you ever been to Ventura County in SoCal, Santa Paula in particular? It is an old oil and citrus town that has it's own little airport that has been around since 1930. (Airport site: http://www.santapaulaairport.com/ and their museum's site: http://www.amszp.org/) One of those where the hangars are individually owned and back in the day Steve McQueen was a resident of Santa Paula for years and even lived at the airport in an old small house right by the air strip! Years ago, (after McQueen had passed though) on weekends, I used to play w/a band that jammed at the hanger that was located next to that house. The vocalist's father had been a pilot for Continental for years and after he retired he flew out of that airport and had left him the hanger when he passed away. It was a blast playing and watching planes take off and land and we'd even get people hanging at the bar/grill at the other end of the airport hear us and come over to listen. Ahhhh, the old days, good times.
Btw, today I ordered all the parts I need to install the Edelbrock Performer combo and the dual exhaust system/headers. Should have everything in about a week and can't wait! Gonna pull the valve covers off to see what heads I have, the current 2v intake looks to be the original and I'm curious if the heads may be too. Plus the VC gaskets need replacing anyhow so good excuse to do that this week.
Oscar
