coloradoHCS
Well-known member
Way to go Casey! Mark.
COMMUNITY
1968 GT/CS & HCS
2007+ GT/CS
1966-1967 HCS
-
Welcome to the CaliforniaSpecial.com forums! - You are currently viewing the forums as a GUEST. To take advantage of all our site features, please take a moment to join our community! It's fast, simple and absolutely free.If you have problems registering or can't log into your account, please contact Admin.Please Note: If you are an existing member and your password no longer works, click here to reset it.
Engine Question
- Thread starter case12
- Start date
OP
OP
case12
Well-known member
Well you all would be proud of me - I just set all my valve lash and got the valve train quiet (never done that before) and car runs beautifully. I still have one very annoying problem - I had and still have a metal clanking noise coming from the valve train (I think) on the 1234 side. It is NOT your typical valve noise which is normally a clacking or tapping noise. It almost sounds like taking two metal rods in your hand and hitting them together (it is that loud). I cannot tell which cylinder (if any) it is coming from - even with the poor man's stethescope method (broom handle). Valve adjustment does not seem to make a difference. One mechanic I took it to thought it might be a water pump (or other) squeak echoing in the engine. We took all belts off, ran engine, and still have the noise. It is so loud and metallic sounding, it is hard to believe it is inside the engine (we thought it should be more muffled). Maybe a push rod hitting a bad lifter would make this sound? (but, we just replaced all the lifters). fyi- I have put about 75 miles on the car hoping that a lifter may have air in it still?
You all helped me get this far, I just thought I would get a few more ideas before I put on the "surgical gloves" and head back into the patient. Casey
You all helped me get this far, I just thought I would get a few more ideas before I put on the "surgical gloves" and head back into the patient. Casey
OP
OP
case12
Well-known member
Arlie, I like your questions. They are making me think - I had run out of ideas. Remember, I am more of a detailing guy, and not an engine guy - so, I am learning.
The noise started about 40 miles after I had replaced all the lifters. Drove around for a while, everything sounded fine, and then it started. It does it hot and cold.
It will go away sometimes, though I have not been able to deduce any pattern. It is there 99% of the time. It is loud enough for cars around you at the stop light to hear it. I adjusted the valve lash hoping it was a loose push rod - I got all the valves sounding good, but this noise is still there. (maybe bad brand new lifter, lifter with air in it still? - but it runs great? it sounds just like banging two metal rods together - and I cannot isolate it, except it seems to be coming from the 1234 side).
It is definitely tied to engine rpm. I dont know if it is full rpm or 1/2 rpm (how would I tell, and what is the significance?).
I know I am asking the near impossible - describing a noise to a web site and hoping for some ideas. :-\ Thanks, Casey
The noise started about 40 miles after I had replaced all the lifters. Drove around for a while, everything sounded fine, and then it started. It does it hot and cold.
It will go away sometimes, though I have not been able to deduce any pattern. It is there 99% of the time. It is loud enough for cars around you at the stop light to hear it. I adjusted the valve lash hoping it was a loose push rod - I got all the valves sounding good, but this noise is still there. (maybe bad brand new lifter, lifter with air in it still? - but it runs great? it sounds just like banging two metal rods together - and I cannot isolate it, except it seems to be coming from the 1234 side).
It is definitely tied to engine rpm. I dont know if it is full rpm or 1/2 rpm (how would I tell, and what is the significance?).
I know I am asking the near impossible - describing a noise to a web site and hoping for some ideas. :-\ Thanks, Casey
rvrtrash
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2003
- Messages
- 3,665
[quote author=case12 link=board=1;threadid=1605;start=75#msg11760 date=1119280036]
It is definitely tied to engine rpm. I dont know if it is full rpm or 1/2 rpm (how would I tell, and what is the significance?).
[/quote]
If it is the same frequency as a ticking lifter, the problem is in the top end/ valvetrain. Loosen one rocker arm till it starts to clatter and see if the other noise is in sync with it. If the noise is twice as fast, it's in the bottom end. I haven't been reading the threads a lot lately so forgive me if I repeat anything. If you pull all the plugs and turn the engine over, you may be able to hear the noise and locate it's source better without the sound of the engine running to mask it.
Steve
It is definitely tied to engine rpm. I dont know if it is full rpm or 1/2 rpm (how would I tell, and what is the significance?).
[/quote]
If it is the same frequency as a ticking lifter, the problem is in the top end/ valvetrain. Loosen one rocker arm till it starts to clatter and see if the other noise is in sync with it. If the noise is twice as fast, it's in the bottom end. I haven't been reading the threads a lot lately so forgive me if I repeat anything. If you pull all the plugs and turn the engine over, you may be able to hear the noise and locate it's source better without the sound of the engine running to mask it.
Steve
Mosesatm
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2005
- Messages
- 9,177
If you find it is at engine rpm one thing to do is to start at one end of the 1234 bank and GENTLY AND SLOWLY tighten down on a rocker nut until the valve stays open. If the sound goes away with the valve open the noise is probably a stress related, bottom end problem, usually a bad wrist pin. If the sound doesn't go away readjust your lifter back to where it was and then keep working down the line. Since all you are trying to do is open a valve to eliminate the stress on the piston you don't need to perform this test on every rocker, just one per cylinder.
OP
OP
case12
Well-known member
Steve, Arlie, Thanks. Now for the stupid questions:
1. It sounds like both of your ideas require me to do this with the engine running and valve cover off. Right? I was taught to use a piece of cardboard about 6"x12" as a shield to keep oil from going everywhere when doing this. (I dont have an extra valve cover to cut).
2. I dont understand why the bottom end (presumably the lifter riding on the cam) would be twice as fast as the top end (the push rod hitting the rocker arm)?
3. Arlie, I presume your method of gently and slowly is because I dont want the valve hitting the piston - right?
4. I noticed as I was using the remote start to turn over the engine while setting the valves (cold) on 1234 that number 1 intake was not oozing oil like the the other rockers. (just wild guessing if this has anything to do with anything).
Casey
1. It sounds like both of your ideas require me to do this with the engine running and valve cover off. Right? I was taught to use a piece of cardboard about 6"x12" as a shield to keep oil from going everywhere when doing this. (I dont have an extra valve cover to cut).
2. I dont understand why the bottom end (presumably the lifter riding on the cam) would be twice as fast as the top end (the push rod hitting the rocker arm)?
3. Arlie, I presume your method of gently and slowly is because I dont want the valve hitting the piston - right?
4. I noticed as I was using the remote start to turn over the engine while setting the valves (cold) on 1234 that number 1 intake was not oozing oil like the the other rockers. (just wild guessing if this has anything to do with anything).
Casey
Mosesatm
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2005
- Messages
- 9,177
[quote author=case12 link=board=1;threadid=1605;start=75#msg11773 date=1119292264]
Steve, Arlie, Thanks. Now for the stupid questions:
1. It sounds like both of your ideas require me to do this with the engine running and valve cover off. Right? I was taught to use a piece of cardboard about 6"x12" as a shield to keep oil from going everywhere when doing this. (I dont have an extra valve cover to cut).
2. I dont understand why the bottom end (presumably the lifter riding on the cam) would be twice as fast as the top end (the push rod hitting the rocker arm)?
3. Arlie, I presume your method of gently and slowly is because I dont want the valve hitting the piston - right?
4. I noticed as I was using the remote start to turn over the engine while setting the valves (cold) on 1234 that number 1 intake was not oozing oil like the the other rockers. (just wild guessing if this has anything to do with anything).
Casey
[/quote]
Casey,
1. Auto parts store sell rocker clips. I don't remember how much they cost but they are cheap.
2. Everything from the cam upward is considered the top-end. Since there are twice as many lifters as there are cylinders the lifters and related top-end hardware runs a half the speed of the cylinder. For example the intake valve and associated hardware only operates on the intake stroke but not the exhaust stroke.
3. Right. I've always adjusted hydraulic lifters with the car running. If I can remember correctly the method is to take the lifter down to where it stops clattering then 3/4 of a turn past that point.
4. No oil to that rocker could definitly be a symptom of something wrong with that part of the engine. Since the noise started shortly after you replaced the lifters it's probably an upper end issue and the best place to check first is the rocker that is not receiving oil. It may be a bent or plugged push rod, a lifter that can't relax, or a flat-spotted cam (probably not since the car runs well).
Anyone else have any ideas?
Steve, Arlie, Thanks. Now for the stupid questions:
1. It sounds like both of your ideas require me to do this with the engine running and valve cover off. Right? I was taught to use a piece of cardboard about 6"x12" as a shield to keep oil from going everywhere when doing this. (I dont have an extra valve cover to cut).
2. I dont understand why the bottom end (presumably the lifter riding on the cam) would be twice as fast as the top end (the push rod hitting the rocker arm)?
3. Arlie, I presume your method of gently and slowly is because I dont want the valve hitting the piston - right?
4. I noticed as I was using the remote start to turn over the engine while setting the valves (cold) on 1234 that number 1 intake was not oozing oil like the the other rockers. (just wild guessing if this has anything to do with anything).
Casey
[/quote]
Casey,
1. Auto parts store sell rocker clips. I don't remember how much they cost but they are cheap.
2. Everything from the cam upward is considered the top-end. Since there are twice as many lifters as there are cylinders the lifters and related top-end hardware runs a half the speed of the cylinder. For example the intake valve and associated hardware only operates on the intake stroke but not the exhaust stroke.
3. Right. I've always adjusted hydraulic lifters with the car running. If I can remember correctly the method is to take the lifter down to where it stops clattering then 3/4 of a turn past that point.
4. No oil to that rocker could definitly be a symptom of something wrong with that part of the engine. Since the noise started shortly after you replaced the lifters it's probably an upper end issue and the best place to check first is the rocker that is not receiving oil. It may be a bent or plugged push rod, a lifter that can't relax, or a flat-spotted cam (probably not since the car runs well).
Anyone else have any ideas?
mmarsalone
Well-known member
[quote author=case12 link=board=1;threadid=1605;start=75#msg11773 date=1119292264]
2. I dont understand why the bottom end (presumably the lifter riding on the cam) would be twice as fast as the top end (the push rod hitting the rocker arm)?
[/quote]
Casey,
The crank turns twice as fast as the cam. The piston makes two strokes for each cylinder. This is done by the size of the sprockets on the crank and the cam. Hope this helps. And as said, the bottom end is the crank, rods, and pistons.
Mike
2. I dont understand why the bottom end (presumably the lifter riding on the cam) would be twice as fast as the top end (the push rod hitting the rocker arm)?
[/quote]
Casey,
The crank turns twice as fast as the cam. The piston makes two strokes for each cylinder. This is done by the size of the sprockets on the crank and the cam. Hope this helps. And as said, the bottom end is the crank, rods, and pistons.
Mike
I happen to be looking at the site for the first time in ages an thought I would chime in on your post.
Even on the 6th page on did not read where this issue was resolved. So a few comments /questions( forgive me if I missed something in the 6 pages).
have you checked the cam with a dial indicator. You can do this in the valley with a magnetic dial indicator. If you don't own one and don't whnt to fork out for one you may be able to rent want from a tool rental place. With this you should be able to verify lift on your intake and exhaust side. They should be within a similar range.
Have you looked at push rod length. This varies when you change form one head to another(particularly aftermaket). You may research this. What push rods are in there, stock? performance. Was the length different for the Roush heads.
Here's my thinking based on your comments. If you have to adjust the the rockers all the way down the push roods may of been too short for the heads the heads. A hydralic lifter may soak up the issue for a while. But if this geometry is incorrect it will wear out your cam and lifter in short order. I mean minutes. If the cam is infact damaged. You still have the same problem which will destroy the idle. You may look into one of the books like " how to build your small block ford". It may help greatly in the dimensions area. Or talk to the manufacture of the heads for recommendations with your combo. Valve train must all be within limits. On some motors milling alone dictates a shorter or adjustable length push rod.
You may also look for other forums that are in the motor area. Their are a few guys that can help you find you issue over average mechanics. I.E. http://www.network54.com/Forum/119417
Even on the 6th page on did not read where this issue was resolved. So a few comments /questions( forgive me if I missed something in the 6 pages).
have you checked the cam with a dial indicator. You can do this in the valley with a magnetic dial indicator. If you don't own one and don't whnt to fork out for one you may be able to rent want from a tool rental place. With this you should be able to verify lift on your intake and exhaust side. They should be within a similar range.
Have you looked at push rod length. This varies when you change form one head to another(particularly aftermaket). You may research this. What push rods are in there, stock? performance. Was the length different for the Roush heads.
Here's my thinking based on your comments. If you have to adjust the the rockers all the way down the push roods may of been too short for the heads the heads. A hydralic lifter may soak up the issue for a while. But if this geometry is incorrect it will wear out your cam and lifter in short order. I mean minutes. If the cam is infact damaged. You still have the same problem which will destroy the idle. You may look into one of the books like " how to build your small block ford". It may help greatly in the dimensions area. Or talk to the manufacture of the heads for recommendations with your combo. Valve train must all be within limits. On some motors milling alone dictates a shorter or adjustable length push rod.
You may also look for other forums that are in the motor area. Their are a few guys that can help you find you issue over average mechanics. I.E. http://www.network54.com/Forum/119417
OP
OP
case12
Well-known member
XcodeGTCS, Thanks for the input. I am betting that my cam is ok since I now have the engine running very good. The push rods are brand new and were purchased to match the stock heads (we switched back to stock heads). The lifters are brand new too, because one of them was bad and causing no compression in one cylinder. So, all that is back to normal. The "new" problem is the metal clinking noise (very different sound from valve train tap noise). I have adjusted the valves and it does not go away. This weekend I plan to check the one push rod to see if it is clogged (not oiling the rocker enough) and go through some of the tests Arlie and Steve suggested. I am hoping it is not a bad (brand new) lifter, as that will take more time to get to. Casey
OP
OP
case12
Well-known member
Woo Hoo ;D ;D ;D, I solved the problem! It turns out one of the rocker arm's tiny hole for letting the oil through was clogged! So the new lifter and push rod was getting oil up to the lifter but no further. This is what was causing the loud metal clanging noise, but the engine still ran good - I suppose no oil would do that :-[. I cleared it out with a push pin, readjusted the valves - and now it runs better and quieter than a new car! As I have mentioned, I am not an engine guy, but I have sure learned a lot, and got a lot of help from the board here. Thanks everyone - I am now a happy GT/CS driver ;D ;D. (What? .... I think I hear another noise coming from the rear... :-X :-X). You guys are great. Thanks, Casey
hookedtrout
Well-known member
Congrats Casey, nice to see all the smiles and know you have a small weight off your shoulders. Now go give them streets heck, would ya. ;D
Hook
Hook
OP
OP
case12
Well-known member
[quote author=case12 link=board=1;threadid=1605;start=90#msg11971 date=1119738330]
So the new lifter and push rod was getting oil up to the lifter but no further. This is what was causing the loud metal clanging noise, but the engine still ran good - I suppose no oil would do that :-[.
[/quote]
...meant to say the lifter and push rod were getting oil up to the rocker, but no further.....
So the new lifter and push rod was getting oil up to the lifter but no further. This is what was causing the loud metal clanging noise, but the engine still ran good - I suppose no oil would do that :-[.
[/quote]
...meant to say the lifter and push rod were getting oil up to the rocker, but no further.....
meadowsdk28
Well-known member
[quote author=case12 link=board=1;threadid=1605;start=90#msg11976 date=1119753213]
[quote author=case12 link=board=1;threadid=1605;start=90#msg11971 date=1119738330]
So the new lifter and push rod was getting oil up to the lifter but no further. This is what was causing the loud metal clanging noise, but the engine still ran good - I suppose no oil would do that :-[.
[/quote]
Yeah, I was just about to tell you to check that...I knew that must have been what the problem was...Yeah, that's the ticket!!
Seriously, congrats!!
[/quote]
[quote author=case12 link=board=1;threadid=1605;start=90#msg11971 date=1119738330]
So the new lifter and push rod was getting oil up to the lifter but no further. This is what was causing the loud metal clanging noise, but the engine still ran good - I suppose no oil would do that :-[.
[/quote]
Yeah, I was just about to tell you to check that...I knew that must have been what the problem was...Yeah, that's the ticket!!
Seriously, congrats!!
[/quote]
